** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 21 Jul 2019, 10:39pm

pete75 wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
661-Pete wrote:You seem to have a very disparaging view of "experts", in quotes or not. I'd have thought, everyone is an 'expert' in something. I suppose I'm an 'expert' in one or two fields, but I'll keep that bit of knowledge to myself. Perhaps you are, too?

I prefer to call them 'so-called "experts" ' (but what do they know?!!)


You're an innocent man on trial for murder. Who would you like to defend you - some bod dragged at random from a bunch of Tommy Robinson supporters or a so called "expert" in this case a QC?


Let's say the innocent man on trial is a Tommy Robinson supporter and you're the QC.
Last edited by windmiller on 21 Jul 2019, 10:54pm, edited 1 time in total.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 21 Jul 2019, 10:48pm

windmiller wrote:
pete75 wrote:
bovlomov wrote:I prefer to call them 'so-called "experts" ' (but what do they know?!!)


You're an innocent man on trial for murder. Who would you like to defend you - some bod dragged at random from a bunch of Tommy Robinson supporters or a so called "expert" in this case a QC?


Let's say the innocent man on trial is a Tommy Robinson supporter and you're the QC.


If I was a QC it wouldn't make any difference. My job would be to defend my client to the best of my ability . A Tommy Robinson supporter is as deserving of a fair trial as anyone else.

In any case you're completely missing the point of my post which is that when faced with a major "problem" people's views on experts tend to change when knowledge and expertise is required to sort out that problem. I used the example of a Robinson supporter as someone unlikely to have any knowledge or ability to persuade a jury of his clients innocence.

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 21 Jul 2019, 10:58pm

pete75 wrote:
windmiller wrote:
pete75 wrote:
You're an innocent man on trial for murder. Who would you like to defend you - some bod dragged at random from a bunch of Tommy Robinson supporters or a so called "expert" in this case a QC?


Let's say the innocent man on trial is a Tommy Robinson supporter and you're the QC.


If I was a QC it wouldn't make any difference. My job would be to defend my client to the best of my ability . A Tommy Robinson supporter is as deserving of a fair trial as anyone else. Not everyone shares your one sided view of the world.

In any case you're completely missing the point of my post which is that when faced with a major "problem" people's views on experts tend to change when knowledge and expertis eis required to sort out that problem. I used the example of a Robinson supporter as someone unlikely to have any knowledge or ability to persuade a jury of his clients innocence.


Rather naive to assume that truth, justice and the law are the same thing. You're over egging the expert part.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 21 Jul 2019, 11:05pm

Ahem... Mine was a joke.

About experts...
It's good that experts are questioned and challenged. Sometimes they do get things wrong. Sometimes a layperson can see things an expert can't. The orthodoxy can be wrong. I see it in the same light as conspiracy theories. That term covers a wide range of possibilities - some more likely than others. There's nothing inherently wrong with conspiracy theories or with challenges to experts.

But there has to be some reasonable alternative.

It isn't good enough, when claiming the moon landing were faked, or the world is flat, just to say all the photos and film and witnesses and experts are wrong. You need to construct an alternative theory that stands up to scrutiny. It seems to me that many of the wilder conspiracy theorists set a much lower bar for their own theories than they do for the orthodoxy. No amount of orthodoxy-supporting evidence will do, but their own theories fly with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

That's where we are with Brexit. Every expert is dismissed. Whole fields of science are brushed aside. Swathes of evidence is ignored. Yet there is no alternative vision, no alternative science, no alternative evidence, no plan. It's a lot of destruction but no creation. They know they have to smash everything up - the civil service, the judiciary, Parliament, the universities, but they have absolutely no plan for replacements.

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 21 Jul 2019, 11:37pm

bovlomov wrote:Ahem... Mine was a joke.

About experts...
It's good that experts are questioned and challenged. Sometimes they do get things wrong. Sometimes a layperson can see things an expert can't. The orthodoxy can be wrong. I see it in the same light as conspiracy theories. That term covers a wide range of possibilities - some more likely than others. There's nothing inherently wrong with conspiracy theories or with challenges to experts.

But there has to be some reasonable alternative.

It isn't good enough, when claiming the moon landing were faked, or the world is flat, just to say all the photos and film and witnesses and experts are wrong. You need to construct an alternative theory that stands up to scrutiny. It seems to me that many of the wilder conspiracy theorists set a much lower bar for their own theories than they do for the orthodoxy. No amount of orthodoxy-supporting evidence will do, but their own theories fly with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

That's where we are with Brexit. Every expert is dismissed. Whole fields of science are brushed aside. Swathes of evidence is ignored. Yet there is no alternative vision, no alternative science, no alternative evidence, no plan. It's a lot of destruction but no creation. They know they have to smash everything up - the civil service, the judiciary, Parliament, the universities, but they have absolutely no plan for replacements.


They don't need smashed up just a damn good thrashing.

The distance/gulf between ordinary people and the establishment has grown beyond quick repair. The tape worm of ideological corruption aided and led by certain sections of the middle class, who control the media,legal and political/educational institutions has led to more inequality - less freedom and democracy in this country. I can understand those that have a vested interest in the system as it is to view this as just another conspiracy theory.
Well those that do are in for one rude *#*# kicking wake up call.

lowers pitchfork..good night folks.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 21 Jul 2019, 11:49pm

windmiller wrote:They don't need smashed up just a damn good thrashing.

The distance/gulf between ordinary people and the establishment has grown beyond quick repair. The tape worm of ideological corruption aided and led by certain sections of the middle class, who control the media,legal and political/educational institutions has led to more inequality - less freedom and democracy in this country. I can understand those that have a vested interest in the system as it is to view this as just another conspiracy theory.
Well those that do are in for one rude *#*# kicking wake up call.

lowers pitchfork..good night folks.

In your story, it is hard to know which are the establishment and the vested interests. I mean, how shall we recognise them? Is it the billions? The connections? The media access? The education? The entitlement? The sense of superiority? The classical allusions? The latin? The investment portfolios? The accents?

I have no trouble believing that many Remainers represent and are part of 'the establishment'. I find it impossible, however, to see Brexiters as outsiders. They are not. Of all the lies told in pursuit of Brexit, the biggest is that it is anti-establishment.

By the way, remember that 'ordinary people' is no longer the correct term. According to arch-Brexiter Rod Liddle, ordinary Brits are to be referred to as 'chavmonkeys'. Does he mean us?

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 22 Jul 2019, 3:01am

I think we need to talk about class. And specifically the intelligentsia. It is they (the experts, the media, the professionals, the educated, the BBC, the Westminster bubble) who are criticised by Leave. But the intelligentsia is a social or status class, not an economic class as such. It has a strong interest in the EU probably because the EU reflects many of its cultural and social values. And it is an easy target for the real movers and shakers behind Leave to attack. It is a privileged and educated class that differentiates itself from the working class through manners and culture. It has become the target of Leave (and the Leave media) as this diverts attention from the real motive of Leave: the liberalisation of trade, finance and land development. It is vulnerable to accusations of remoteness and privilege and thus to the antagonism of the working class, despite its general support for the less well-off. The easiest response to the intelligentsia is simply not to listen or believe (as it cannot be argued with).

I think there is something to be said for this approach. What the older working class can claim is membership of the wartime generation and white, Christian ethnicity, a traditional working class identity. That means that it can find a measure of security and indeed privilege (vis-a vis the new working class).

As a member myself of the intelligentsia, I see us caught in the crossfire. Corporate capital generally favours the free trade and labour movement of the EU and that forms a bedrock of support for the EU while paying the (often handsome) wages of the intelligentsia. But family-owned and more independent wealth wants less regulation and less restriction than that offered by the EU. It will be interesting to see how the owners of capital, wealth and finance (the shareholders) divide between these two camps. In the meantime they will no doubt compete for the best skills and brains in the intelligentsia to put their respective cases to the working class.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 22 Jul 2019, 8:55am

I did, a few months ago, read through Michael Young's dystopic satire The Rise of the Meritocracy. Not an easy read for me, since I am no way an 'expert' on the subject of sociology, but I think I got the gist of it. Whether it answers any questions about 'who should be running the country' - or who should be empowered to nominate who should be running the country - well I don't think it does. And I don't know whether it correctly categorises the 'expert'. But it certainly makes one think - even if the book is somewhat dated (it was published in the 1950s).

Read it for yourself.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 22 Jul 2019, 9:05am

windmiller wrote:lowers pitchfork..good night folks.
You are Eric Idle/Michael Palin/John Cleese/Terry Gilliam/All Four of them AICMFP...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 22 Jul 2019, 9:17am

horizon wrote:I think we need to talk about class.<snip>
I agree with much of what you say, but not
What the older working class can claim is membership of the wartime generation...


Some try to associate themselves with WWII, but most weren't even born. The last years of rationing and a couple of years of National Service really don't count.

Remember May telling us that she wanted to give the young people the opportunities she never had. Blimey! She was the daughter of a vicar who grew up in a period of unprecedented peace, wealth and opportunity - an era of free education, libraries, universal health care, public services, full pensions, free bus passes for the young and the elderly, international travel opportunities. In other words, many of the things that today's young people will not be able to depend on.

What we have are post war children, some only in their mid-fifties, hijacking WWII and Churchill for unrelated purposes. There's more evidence that Churchill would have supported the EU than that he would have opposed it. The genuine wartime generation were the ones who built the EU.


Hobbs1951
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Hobbs1951 » 22 Jul 2019, 10:16am

horizon wrote:As a member myself of the intelligentsia,..


I trust you'll not misunderstand my curiousity, but in what sense do you consider yourself a member of the intelligensia ?

John.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 22 Jul 2019, 10:19am

horizon wrote:I think we need to talk about class. And specifically the intelligentsia. It is they (the experts, the media, the professionals, the educated, the BBC, the Westminster bubble) who are criticised by Leave. But the intelligentsia is a social or status class, not an economic class as such. It has a strong interest in the EU probably because the EU reflects many of its cultural and social values. And it is an easy target for the real movers and shakers behind Leave to attack. It is a privileged and educated class that differentiates itself from the working class through manners and culture. It has become the target of Leave (and the Leave media) as this diverts attention from the real motive of Leave: the liberalisation of trade, finance and land development. It is vulnerable to accusations of remoteness and privilege and thus to the antagonism of the working class, despite its general support for the less well-off. The easiest response to the intelligentsia is simply not to listen or believe (as it cannot be argued with).

I think there is something to be said for this approach. What the older working class can claim is membership of the wartime generation and white, Christian ethnicity, a traditional working class identity. That means that it can find a measure of security and indeed privilege (vis-a vis the new working class).

As a member myself of the intelligentsia, I see us caught in the crossfire. Corporate capital generally favours the free trade and labour movement of the EU and that forms a bedrock of support for the EU while paying the (often handsome) wages of the intelligentsia. But family-owned and more independent wealth wants less regulation and less restriction than that offered by the EU. It will be interesting to see how the owners of capital, wealth and finance (the shareholders) divide between these two camps. In the meantime they will no doubt compete for the best skills and brains in the intelligentsia to put their respective cases to the working class.


Intelligentsia?
Or class?
I don't think leave or remain divides so clearly along those lines.
I personally am acquainted with 3 or 4 folk who fit into the privileged class and they all voted leave.

I also know a lot of less well educated folk and their vote was more evenly divided.

The first lot share a very "Little England" attitude, in spite of them having holiday homes or residency outside of England.

I actually think most folk voting leave were looking for someone to blame for other problems in their lives.
A convenient and easy scapegoat.

The EU fitted that "othering" bill very nicely.
Seen as remote and foreign and run by people with funny accents, it had born the brunt of blame from even our own Govt. and a large section of the press for a decade or more.
Advertising works!

Paint a slogan or two on the side of a bus, pump money into a campaign riddled with factual inaccuracies and the scene was set.
And continues to be set.

Look at the argument on here now.

Specifics from the Leavers have pretty much largely (entirely?) flown the scene. What is now important is simply and only "the will of (half) the people".
((Though if that will genuinely exists is rather doubtful IMV.))
Even though if, as it would appear, great damage will be done to our wellbeing as a country by leaving.

Not that that wellbeing is all too much in evidence.

It is the start of the holiday season on the coasts of Britain.
An influx of very overweight and unhealthy looking people has occurred.
They wander (waddle?) rather dead eyed, (though eye contact is always avoided) along resort pavements staring at shop windows, with an air of being quite lost; not so much geographically but psychologically.
They also very often look pretty unhappy.
I am always temped to set up a gallop poll type husting to inquire as to their view of Europe and the EU.
I fear I already mostly know the answers though.

They are certainly the avid followers of Eastenders, and red top news pap tittle tattle.
To be away from their screens is a sore trial.
Reality is become blurred for them and they are easy meat for the unscrupulous and powerful.
Tell them they can "take back control" and the scene is set!
Ha!
Many of them have lost control of even their own wills.

Hobbs1951
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Hobbs1951 » 22 Jul 2019, 10:28am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Intelligentsia?
Or class?
I don't think leave or remain divides so clearly along those lines.
I personally am acquainted with 3 or 4 folk who fit into the privileged class and they all voted leave.



Intelligentsia is a class or not depending on the definition - why asked the question of the poster. Privilege might mean nothing more than money: it doesn't have to mean educated or intelligent: and it IS all relative...you might live in a one bed council flat and consider someone living in a council house privileged.

The result of the vote can be divided along simple lines.

John.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 22 Jul 2019, 10:30am

Hobbs1951 wrote:The result of the vote can be divided along simple lines.

Did you miss a 'not'?