** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Hobbs1951
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Hobbs1951 » 23 Jul 2019, 10:51pm

Does anyone here actually remember the rebate Margaret Thatcher won in 1984, still running to this day - if I recall we're the only member to receive such a rebate ?

I see some folks here have cited the UK as the third largest contributor to the EU, but in per capita terms we are the eighth largest, even Leavers if they got into the fine detail, and if they could understand and be open-minded enough, would change their minds about the EU.

Look at the OBR website for example

John.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 23 Jul 2019, 11:10pm

Hobbs1951 wrote:Does anyone here actually remember the rebate Margaret Thatcher won in 1984, still running to this day - if I recall we're the only member to receive such a rebate ?

I see some folks here have cited the UK as the third largest contributor to the EU, but in per capita terms we are the eighth largest, even Leavers if they got into the fine detail, and if they could understand and be open-minded enough, would change their minds about the EU.

Look at the OBR website for example

John.


Can't expect them to look at fine details. That's the sort of thing experts do and we all know what they think of them.

andrec
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 24 Jul 2019, 7:19am

horizon wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:For Mick: it's about 4 billion euros.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about- ... kingdom_en

But it's economic benefits of single market membership far outweigh this.


Am I right in thinking that the GDP of the UK is around £2tn? Which makes our net contribution about half one thousandth of GDP. Not bad for 70 years of peace.

PS Please check my maths!


Correlation is not causation. Any even if it is the EU which has kept the peace, a debatable point to say the least, why should we need to pay millions of pounds a week to other Europeans just to keep them from waging war? Can't they be peaceful without getting our cash? I haven't heard any Remainers predicting a resumption of the traditional Franco/German bellicosity after Brexit. And even if Europe breaks out in war after Brexit that would not be our fault. [post edited by moderator]

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 24 Jul 2019, 10:45am

roubaixtuesday wrote:For Mick: it's about 4 billion euros.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about- ... kingdom_en

But it's economic benefits of single market membership far outweigh this.
Thank you.
It costs us four thousand million Euros per year to be a club member and receive the fringe benefits of that club.

Say there are forty million taxpayers in the UK.
This means that I have spent 100Euros a year to be a member of a club.

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.
Mick F. Cornwall

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 24 Jul 2019, 10:52am

Mick F wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:For Mick: it's about 4 billion euros.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about- ... kingdom_en

But it's economic benefits of single market membership far outweigh this.
Thank you.
It costs us four thousand million Euros per year to be a club member and receive the fringe benefits of that club.

Say there are forty million taxpayers in the UK.
This means that I have spent 100Euros a year to be a member of a club.

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.


That's less than the price of one cup of coffee per week.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 24 Jul 2019, 10:57am

horizon wrote:
Mick F wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:For Mick: it's about 4 billion euros.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about- ... kingdom_en

But it's economic benefits of single market membership far outweigh this.
Thank you.
It costs us four thousand million Euros per year to be a club member and receive the fringe benefits of that club.

Say there are forty million taxpayers in the UK.
This means that I have spent 100Euros a year to be a member of a club.

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.


That's less than the price of one cup of coffee per week.

I wonder how much Mick has saved on not paying import duties?
I'm willing to bet it's a lot more than that.

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 24 Jul 2019, 10:59am

andrec wrote: Any even if it is the EU which has kept the peace, a debatable point to say the least, why should we need to pay millions of pounds a week to other Europeans just to keep them from waging war? Can't they be peaceful without getting our cash? I haven't heard any Remainers predicting a resumption of the traditional Franco/German bellicosity after Brexit. And even if Europe breaks out in war after Brexit that would not be our fault. [post edited by moderator]


I get the impression that so-called European values were now so well-entrenched that the idea of war between EU members is indeed laughable. I do wonder whether the Bosnian crisis also further reinforced the idea that without the EU, countries could well descend into conflict. Spain is always on my mind and my belief is that membership of the EU was the way that Spain moved fast and furiously away from its past. But yes, it's all a moot point: maybe we are over-complacent with the idea of European peace, maybe not.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

djnotts
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby djnotts » 24 Jul 2019, 12:14pm

"This means that I have spent 100Euros a year to be a member of a club.

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me."

Sounds an absolute bargain to me! Even more so if I lived in a region/area e.g. Cornwall that has benefited hugely from EU Regional Policy. Funding from EU budget lines PLUS an automatic and consequential skewing of UK Departmental PES to cover and match (entirely different pots) e.g. Objective 1 Programmes. UK budgets ONLY targeted at Regional Policy ends because unavoidable given that the EU policy money an intrinsic element of the rebate - which no UK government could "turn away".

But then how many people - including accountable ministers in my experience - understood how this worked?

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 24 Jul 2019, 12:55pm

djnotts wrote:"This means that I have spent 100Euros a year to be a member of a club.

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me."

Sounds an absolute bargain to me! Even more so if I lived in a region/area e.g. Cornwall that has benefited hugely from EU Regional Policy. Funding from EU budget lines PLUS an automatic and consequential skewing of UK Departmental PES to cover and match (entirely different pots) e.g. Objective 1 Programmes. UK budgets ONLY targeted at Regional Policy ends because unavoidable given that the EU policy money an intrinsic element of the rebate - which no UK government could "turn away".

But then how many people - including accountable ministers in my experience - understood how this worked?

Indeed. Quite so.

I don't really know why Mick is asking?

He has stated on here very many times that he has disliked the idea of a European Union all his life.

The finances are not interesting for him at all because he would want to leave even if they gave him money.
It's a principle thing as I understand it. Though I don't understand it well it must be said!

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 24 Jul 2019, 12:58pm

djnotts wrote:Sounds an absolute bargain to me! Even more so if I lived in a region/area e.g. Cornwall that has benefited hugely from EU Regional Policy.
Hugely???????

What exactly?
Mick F. Cornwall

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 24 Jul 2019, 12:59pm

horizon wrote:
andrec wrote: Any even if it is the EU which has kept the peace, a debatable point to say the least, why should we need to pay millions of pounds a week to other Europeans just to keep them from waging war? Can't they be peaceful without getting our cash? I haven't heard any Remainers predicting a resumption of the traditional Franco/German bellicosity after Brexit. And even if Europe breaks out in war after Brexit that would not be our fault. [post edited by moderator]


I get the impression that so-called European values were now so well-entrenched that the idea of war between EU members is indeed laughable. I do wonder whether the Bosnian crisis also further reinforced the idea that without the EU, countries could well descend into conflict. Spain is always on my mind and my belief is that membership of the EU was the way that Spain moved fast and furiously away from its past. But yes, it's all a moot point: maybe we are over-complacent with the idea of European peace, maybe not.

It's not so much "keeping the peace" but rather the promoting of understanding that has achieved a long peace.
It that sense the EU has had a fair degree of success.
Though there are a few notable exceptions!

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 24 Jul 2019, 1:01pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:I don't really know why Mick is asking?
I was asking a basic non-partisan question.
Basic question, and I've received the basic answer.

We are four thousand million Euros down every single year.
Mick F. Cornwall

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 24 Jul 2019, 1:07pm

Mick F wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:I don't really know why Mick is asking?
I was asking a basic non-partisan question.
Basic question, and I've received the basic answer.

We are four thousand million Euros down every single year.


Non partisan, :lol: hmmm.

It's tosh anyway. Straight out of Farage's propaganda sheet.

And you have been on here long enough to have received polite and detailed answers over a long period.

I googled "Cornwall and the EU"( it wasn't all that hard!) and it came up with loads of results.
Here's one at random.

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornw ... ll-2697596

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 24 Jul 2019, 1:10pm

Mick F wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:I don't really know why Mick is asking?
I was asking a basic non-partisan question.
Basic question, and I've received the basic answer.

We are four thousand million Euros down every single year.


The NHS budget is one hundred thousand million pounds per year. Without casting aspersions on many Brexit supporters, just their getting out on their bikes, losing a bit of weight and changing their diet would instantly reduce that by £4bn.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

djnotts
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby djnotts » 24 Jul 2019, 1:17pm

In summary: "Cornwall qualified for Objective One European funding in 1999. Prior to this the Government had, for statistical purposes, incorporated it with Devon, under the Devonwall concept. In 1998 Cornwall was recognised by the UK Government as having "distinct cultural and historical factors reflecting a Celtic background",[11] thus allowing it to be separated in a regional and economic sense from Devon.

Due to Cornwall producing less than 75% of the average European GDP, £350 million of Objective One funding was received between 2000 and 2006. ...... Objective One funding has been used in supporting and developing a largely indigenous food and farming industry which is now worth nearly two billion pounds a year. Other sectors have also benefited, including the 'creative industries', which have benefited from publicity and investment. Tourism also gained from the funding, and broadband provision was made a priority. There have been some complaints of fund mismanagement, for example, cases such as the £2 million funding towards the failed South West Film Studios at St Agnes.[12]

In 2005, Cornwall was estimated to have a GDP of 70% of the European average and Cornwall qualified once again for Objective One.[13] This 'tranche' was known as Convergence funding, and was due to last between the beginning of 2008 and 2013, and be worth £445 million.[citation needed] Priorities for the 2008–13 tranche have an emphasis on information and communication technologies, competitiveness, enterprise and a providing a skilled workforce."

And all the amounts will have called down an approaching equal amount of domestic public funding and/or private sector contributions. Because UK Regional Policy was largely dismantled post-1979, EU funding (and the consequential Member State contribution) was pretty much additional not substitution.

GDP references are per capita.