** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 20 Aug 2019, 10:20am

mercalia wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Can we expect 1m British people currently living in Europe to be sent back here shortly after 31 October?

British people are, of course, ex-pats. They are never immigrants. They live in an ex-pat community, never an immigrant ghetto.


Most elderly and probably needing expensive health care. Then they'll go into care homes with no staff because they've all been back too.



nah they wont be allowed back as they will have their citizenship revoked by the P-woman


Is that what you Brexiters really want to happen?

NI view on the border

Image

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 20 Aug 2019, 10:26am

Just as the GFA didnt come with an agenda, so the soln to the Irish border has to be approached in the same way, with an open mind - thats some thing the EU refuses to have. It wants to settle things in its favour what ever the cost to other parties involved - that isnt what politics is all about? Typical of a bureaucratic mindset. Certainly not what the GFA was about? Brussels needs to be taken out of the equation and let the politicians work it out? The Germans know fully well with its coalitions how things really work?
Last edited by mercalia on 20 Aug 2019, 10:29am, edited 1 time in total.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 20 Aug 2019, 10:28am

mercalia wrote:Ad Hominem arguments fail to deal with the issues. Separate off what he said then from whether what he is saying now is true or not? I suppose then the UK govt thought that ALL parties were dealing with the GFA, the EU was only apparantly so, rather having another agenda. It is clear now that the EU is more concerned with its ideology than the GFA.

What are the issues? I suppose we'd better take the PM's view.

- The backstop is anti-democratic.
- It is so anti-democratic that the PM and most of his cabinet have voted for it.
- We don't need a backstop because there will be alternative arrangements.

And this is how I understand it.
- The backstop was a UK proposal, to avoid the internal and unavoidable contradictions of the UK government's position.
- Alternative arrangements that are consistent with both WTO and GFA would render the backstop unnecessary.
- The government has no confidence in its alternative arrangements, but is unwilling to admit that it has competing and incompatible demands.

Mercalia. There may indeed be problems with the backstop, but they are irrelevant. The important thing is the UK government's position in relation to the backstop - and that's just a jumble of meaningless soundbites. That's a UK problem, not an EU problem.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Aug 2019, 10:32am

mercalia wrote:Just as the GFA didnt come with an agenda, so the soln to the Irish border has to be approached in the same way, with an open mind - thats some thing the EU refuses to have. It wants to settle things in its favour what ever the cost to other parties involved - that isnt what politics is all about? Typical of a bureaucratic mindset. Certainly not what the GFA was about?


What makes you think the EU has a closed mind on this?

The backstop was proposed by Britain and is seen by the EU as a major concession on their behalf. It allows continued access to the single market *without* following all EU rules or paying membership. Many EU countries were very unhappy about agreeing to it.

Now, how about addressing the points I made above regarding the inherent contradictions in the Brexit argument, which you seem to have conveniently ignored.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 20 Aug 2019, 11:40am

pete75 wrote:
Most elderly and probably needing expensive health care. Then they'll go into care homes with no staff because they've all been back too.

People keep saying that, but it simply isn't true. Most British citizens living in Europe are working age, and many with families.

the Office for National Statistics wrote:*784,900 British citizens live in the EU, excluding the UK and Ireland on 1 January 2017.
*Three countries were very popular – 69% of British citizens living in the EU lived in Spain, France or Germany in 2017.
*Two-thirds of British citizens living in the EU, excluding the UK and Ireland, are aged 15 to 64 years, and more 15- to 64-year-olds live in Spain than any other EU country.


These data are probably underestimating https://www.ft.com/content/d777e5fc-dda ... ae5495d92b

However, it is mainly working age people who have failed to register.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 20 Aug 2019, 12:02pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
mercalia wrote:Just as the GFA didnt come with an agenda, so the soln to the Irish border has to be approached in the same way, with an open mind - thats some thing the EU refuses to have. It wants to settle things in its favour what ever the cost to other parties involved - that isnt what politics is all about? Typical of a bureaucratic mindset. Certainly not what the GFA was about?


What makes you think the EU has a closed mind on this?

The backstop was proposed by Britain and is seen by the EU as a major concession on their behalf. It allows continued access to the single market *without* following all EU rules or paying membership. Many EU countries were very unhappy about agreeing to it.

Now, how about addressing the points I made above regarding the inherent contradictions in the Brexit argument, which you seem to have conveniently ignored.


was it a major concession? which rules dont have to be followed? I thought they all had to be followed. As for payin for membership do you have a reference?

As for your other points, not being a brexit-eer not my concern. I think Boris' latest take is that the issue of the Irish border should not be part of the preamble to Brexit but part of the trade talks, and then presumably a free-trade agreement, rather than some kind of coercive tactic that puts the UK at a disadvantage.

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 20 Aug 2019, 12:39pm

mercalia wrote:[I think Boris' latest take is that the issue of the Irish border should not be part of the preamble to Brexit but part of the trade talks, and then presumably a free-trade agreement, rather than some kind of coercive tactic that puts the UK at a disadvantage.

The preamble includes initial trade talks, as in there needs to be an interim agreement.

Personally I think the EU should tell us to get stuffed.
It's our mess, we should sort it or suffer the consequences.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Aug 2019, 12:44pm

Johnson and the others should have thought a bit harder about the Irish border question wehen they were driving around with the £350million bus.
It is the UK that has decided to erect this border.

It is also an ironic circumstance for the Loyalists IMV.
Under the present short sighted and narrow view of the whole thing it is unresolvable.

If I were in Brussels I would have told the UK and this shambles of its own making to just leave without a deal long ago.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 20 Aug 2019, 1:07pm

Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Most elderly and probably needing expensive health care. Then they'll go into care homes with no staff because they've all been back too.

People keep saying that, but it simply isn't true. Most British citizens living in Europe are working age, and many with families.



So they'll come back here , bump up the unemployment figures and expect benefits, education for their kids and health care that they've paid no taxes to help provide.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Aug 2019, 1:13pm

mercalia wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
mercalia wrote:Just as the GFA didnt come with an agenda, so the soln to the Irish border has to be approached in the same way, with an open mind - thats some thing the EU refuses to have. It wants to settle things in its favour what ever the cost to other parties involved - that isnt what politics is all about? Typical of a bureaucratic mindset. Certainly not what the GFA was about?


What makes you think the EU has a closed mind on this?

The backstop was proposed by Britain and is seen by the EU as a major concession on their behalf. It allows continued access to the single market *without* following all EU rules or paying membership. Many EU countries were very unhappy about agreeing to it.

Now, how about addressing the points I made above regarding the inherent contradictions in the Brexit argument, which you seem to have conveniently ignored.


was it a major concession? which rules dont have to be followed? I thought they all had to be followed. As for payin for membership do you have a reference?

As for your other points, not being a brexit-eer not my concern. I think Boris' latest take is that the issue of the Irish border should not be part of the preamble to Brexit but part of the trade talks, and then presumably a free-trade agreement, rather than some kind of coercive tactic that puts the UK at a disadvantage.


"Which rules don't have to be followed?" See https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/pa ... explained/ Notably free movement of labour is not necessary. The backstop, ironically, gives us exactly what Brexiters said they wanted pre referendum: access to EU markets without free movement of labour.

"As for payin for membership do you have a reference?"
https://fullfact.org/europe/if-we-go-ba ... eu-period/

As for coercion putting the UK at a disadvantage, you're having a laugh. The UK has chosen to put itself in a weak position. The mess we've created is no one's responsibility but ours.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 20 Aug 2019, 1:15pm

The EU's treatment of the UK in leaving the EU should be no different to any other country leaving - viz the GFA should not figure in the the deal at all. Then after or during leaving if the EU dont want to have a hard border then it must be prepared to compromise its principles viz the internal market. At the moment, it isnt prepared to compromise its principles expecting the UK to suffer as a result. I have said some thing like this all along long before Boris had an epiphany.

I just listened to the World At One and the EU just dont get it, typical of tyranical regimes, they are puzzled at why some here care about matters of sovereignty, .

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 20 Aug 2019, 1:25pm

mercalia wrote:The EU's treatment of the UK in leaving the EU should be no different to any other country leaving - viz the GFA should not figure in the the deal at all. Then after or during leaving if the EU dont want to have a hard border then it must be prepared to compromise its principles viz the internal market. At the moment, it isnt prepared to compromise its principles expecting the UK to suffer as a result.

I just listened to the World At One and the EU just dont get it, typical of tyranical regimes, they are puzzled at why some here care about matters of sovereignty, .

Perhaps you could set out for us what you think the EU should do, that is consistent with the GFA, and consistent with Johnson's views.

Actually, I think this is an impossible task, as Johnson's views are utterly incoherent. That's the problem. The EU (or anyone) would find it impossible to negotiate with a bunch of random outbursts.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Aug 2019, 1:29pm

mercalia wrote:...tyranical regimes...


Any kind of constructive dialogue is impossible with such ridiculous hyperbolic rhetoric.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Aug 2019, 1:32pm

The problem remains that Johnson is simultaneously demanding a controlled border with the EU, an uncontrolled border with the EU and freedom to diverge from EU regulatory framework.

This is simply impossible.

No amount of raging and stamping of feet will make it possible.

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 20 Aug 2019, 1:35pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:The problem remains that Johnson is simultaneously demanding a controlled border with the EU, an uncontrolled border with the EU and freedom to diverge from EU regulatory framework.

This is simply impossible.

No amount of raging and stamping of feet will make it possible.

You're assuming it was ever meant to be possible.
My view is he just wants to be seen to be trying.

Currently Brexit is a bit boring, all noise and no trousers. We've got over a month too before anything interesting begins to happen.