** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Debs
Posts: 456
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Debs » 20 Aug 2019, 1:45pm

kwackers wrote:Personally I think the EU should tell us to get stuffed.
It's our mess, we should sort it or suffer the consequences.


who is 'us'?

Personally i think our EU [ that we are still very much a member of ] should tell the Junta Tory Government to grow some democratic backbone, hold a confirmatory referendum, and if Leave wins; The EU will re-open the Brexit Withdrawal Treaty negotiations. If Remain wins then this hideous Tory Junta Government can go get stuffed [ Madame Tussauds is waiting ] :wink:
Last edited by Debs on 20 Aug 2019, 1:47pm, edited 1 time in total.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2082
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Aug 2019, 1:46pm

kwackers wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:The problem remains that Johnson is simultaneously demanding a controlled border with the EU, an uncontrolled border with the EU and freedom to diverge from EU regulatory framework.

This is simply impossible.

No amount of raging and stamping of feet will make it possible.

You're assuming it was ever meant to be possible.
My view is he just wants to be seen to be trying.

Currently Brexit is a bit boring, all noise and no trousers. We've got over a month too before anything interesting begins to happen.


Oh, Johnson is lying and dissembling, obviously. That's what he does.

kwackers
Posts: 13426
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 20 Aug 2019, 2:14pm

Debs wrote:who is 'us'?

Personally i think our EU [ that we are still very much a member of ] should tell the Junta Tory Government to grow some democratic backbone, hold a confirmatory referendum, and if Leave wins; The EU will re-open the Brexit Withdrawal Treaty negotiations. If Remain wins then this hideous Tory Junta Government can go get stuffed [ Madame Tussauds is waiting ] :wink:

"Us" is the UK.

You're obviously more tolerant than me and your solution far more sensible.
I simply know what I (if I was the EU) would be inclined to do at this point (although I admit I'm conflicted between my liberal elite and trotsky socialist values) ;)

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3980
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 20 Aug 2019, 2:22pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:Oh, Johnson is lying and dissembling, obviously. That's what he does.

I'm coming around to thinking that calling Johnson a liar is crediting him with more strategic thinking than he has. He doesn't lie so much as say any thing that suits him at that moment. To lie requires an understanding of the truth. What comes from his mouth may or may not be true. It simply doesn't matter to him. The tide of drivel and waffle serves only to bolster his self-image.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2082
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Aug 2019, 2:36pm

bovlomov wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:Oh, Johnson is lying and dissembling, obviously. That's what he does.

I'm coming around to thinking that calling Johnson a liar is crediting him with more strategic thinking than he has. He doesn't lie so much as say any thing that suits him at that moment. To lie requires an understanding of the truth. What comes from his mouth may or may not be true. It simply doesn't matter to him. The tide of drivel and waffle serves only to bolster his self-image.


Yeah, the correct technical term would probably be <a word for bovine excrement>.

http://journal.sjdm.org/15/15923a/jdm15923a.pdf

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3980
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 20 Aug 2019, 2:52pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:Oh, Johnson is lying and dissembling, obviously. That's what he does.

I'm coming around to thinking that calling Johnson a liar is crediting him with more strategic thinking than he has. He doesn't lie so much as say any thing that suits him at that moment. To lie requires an understanding of the truth. What comes from his mouth may or may not be true. It simply doesn't matter to him. The tide of drivel and waffle serves only to bolster his self-image.


Yeah, the correct technical term would probably be <a word for bovine excrement>.

http://journal.sjdm.org/15/15923a/jdm15923a.pdf

Thanks. This looks very interesting - and more or less what I was getting at.

Mike Sales
Posts: 3242
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 20 Aug 2019, 3:01pm

bovlomov wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:Oh, Johnson is lying and dissembling, obviously. That's what he does.

I'm coming around to thinking that calling Johnson a liar is crediting him with more strategic thinking than he has. He doesn't lie so much as say any thing that suits him at that moment. To lie requires an understanding of the truth. What comes from his mouth may or may not be true. It simply doesn't matter to him. The tide of drivel and waffle serves only to bolster his self-image.


When he was at Eton in the early 1980s, Boris Johnson did something that seems to have set the tone for the rest of his adult life.
Cast in the title role of a production of Shakespeare’s Richard II, he didn’t bother to learn his part.
The character of Richard II has 758 lines in his eponymously titled play. The part requires the actor to be on stage for most of the two-and-a-half hours running time. You can’t ‘wing’ Richard II. But Boris Johnson tried.
Pasting his lines on bits of paper about the place he hoofed the speeches and made up the rest – throwing in jokes whenever there was an awkward silence.
His father Stanley, who was in the audience, thought it was all ‘a hoot’. Nobody else did.
The other children who had spent hours attending rehearsals and learning their parts saw their hard work reduced to the ‘Boris show’. The headmaster, Eric Anderson, was furious.
Until then, Johnson had been Eton’s golden child. Known to all, adored by teachers and students alike. But, his arrogant, self-serving, indolent turn as Richard II was the last straw.
When, in his final year, he was not made School Captain, he unleashed an epic sulk prompting his housemaster to write in his end of term report: “I think he honestly believes that it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else.”
In the three decades since, nobody has better summed up his character. Boris Johnson gets what Boris Johnson wants and stuff anyone who gets in the way.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17085
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 20 Aug 2019, 3:52pm

pete75 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Most elderly and probably needing expensive health care. Then they'll go into care homes with no staff because they've all been back too.

People keep saying that, but it simply isn't true. Most British citizens living in Europe are working age, and many with families.



So they'll come back here , bump up the unemployment figures and expect benefits, education for their kids and health care that they've paid no taxes to help provide.

My British friends who are living in EU / EEA countries all seem to be making efforts to stay where they are, applying for permanent residency, or even citizenship.

I imagine that some British people living in EU / EEA countries will return to the UK, but I expect it will depend upon their country of residence, reasons for living abroad and other factors.

EU countries have considerable autonomy in this area, and some have guaranteed the rights of British citizens to remain. Some have made it contingent upon the UK granting the same rights to their citizens. Others have done nothing whatsoever, implying that British citizens will have to apply for the right to remain if they wish to do so.

I also imagine that most of them will have paid taxes in the UK at some point, even if they have not done so in recent years.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1675
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Aug 2019, 4:17pm

At the time if the referendum apparently numbers of British people living in continental Europe voted 'leave' then were horified to discover that leave meant leaving.

Many now, I imagine, think that Engliah people can do what they want: no-one can tell Brits what to do.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 20 Aug 2019, 6:17pm, edited 1 time in total.
John

Cycling and recycling

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 8948
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 20 Aug 2019, 4:53pm

When he was at Eton in the early 1980s, Boris Johnson did something that seems to have set the tone for the rest of his adult life.
Cast in the title role of a production of Shakespeare’s Richard II, he didn’t bother to learn his part.
I think he'd have been better cast as Richard III:
"A No-Deal! A No-Deal! My premiership for a No-Deal!"


Come to think of it - the nation would be a lot better off if he were buried in a car park in Leicester.
Permanently.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9449
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 20 Aug 2019, 5:43pm

mercalia wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:... and now we have " Project Yellowhammer"

Where the "Government" is dismissing its own policies as "Project Fear"

Ironically the fits in with the classic definition of "Project Fear" where it is a simple dismissal (without any evidence) of anything apart from UNicorns grazing tranquilly in golden idyllic pastures

It makes interesting reading. One thing it suggest is that the worse off in society will suffer the most. All the evidence indicates that they voted overwhelmingly for Brexit. It certainly proves the saying "Be very careful for what you wish for, you might get it".
Many of the people who will suffer the most will be on benefits. The current right wing government is unlikely to increase them even if food prices go up a lot.


Be careful you dont call them the "Lower Class" as some one here will jump down your throat :wink:



One of the interesting anomalies of the "Brexit Vote" was that most Leave voters cited immigration and borders as the prime reasons. They were from the lower-income groups and there is a link that correlates high EU subsidy with Leave votes

Remain voters were the ones who cited financial and social concerns as their prime reasons for voting

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2082
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Aug 2019, 6:12pm

Cunobelin wrote:One of the interesting anomalies of the "Brexit Vote" was that most Leave voters cited immigration and borders as the prime reasons. They were from the lower-income groups and there is a link that correlates high EU subsidy with Leave votes

Remain voters were the ones who cited financial and social concerns as their prime reasons for voting


Even more interestingly was that immigration in the local area was anti- correlated: more immigrants= more pro- remain.

In other words, it was quite literally xenophobia - fear of foreigners. Actual foreigners didn't bother people.

pete75
Posts: 11663
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 20 Aug 2019, 7:04pm

Oldjohnw wrote:At the time if the referendum apparently numbers of British people living in continental Europe voted 'leave' then were horified to discover that leave meant leaving.



No .It was a big gripe of so called ex pats that they couldn't vote in the referendum. Over 700,000 people who had lived in the EU for over 15 years were not allowed to vote. Indications are that most would have voted remain.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 82411.html

pete75
Posts: 11663
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 20 Aug 2019, 7:09pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:One of the interesting anomalies of the "Brexit Vote" was that most Leave voters cited immigration and borders as the prime reasons. They were from the lower-income groups and there is a link that correlates high EU subsidy with Leave votes

Remain voters were the ones who cited financial and social concerns as their prime reasons for voting


Even more interestingly was that immigration in the local area was anti- correlated: more immigrants= more pro- remain.

In other words, it was quite literally xenophobia - fear of foreigners. Actual foreigners didn't bother people.


Not true. The Boston constituency had the biggest leave vote. There are about 10,000 EU migrants in the fairly small town. The next door constituency, SPalding, had the second highest leave vote. It has a similar large number of EU migrants.

Mike Sales
Posts: 3242
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 20 Aug 2019, 7:14pm

pete75 wrote:Not true. The Boston constituency had the biggest leave vote. There are about 10,000 EU migrants in the fairly small town. The next door constituency, SPalding, had the second highest leave vote. It has a similar large number of EU migrants.



All I can say in exculpation is that South Hollanders are not used to immigrants, unlike many British cities foreigners are a recent phenomenon.
Though there were riots against Hansa incomers (perhaps from the same areas as today's) a few hundred years ago.