Cugel wrote:Are you saying that the various delusions and paranoid fantasies about the EU held by many leavers are somehow cogent, worthy, to be catered to?
Yes, I am. It was R D Laing who suggested that a catatonic patient in an asylum wasn't mad at all - if you had been through what he had been through, you too would be in his state. His unmoving silence was a logical, sensible response to his predicament.
Are you suggesting that those for leaving are somehow equivalent to the catatonic, so damaged by EU predations of some mysterious kind that they cannot function and need to be institutionalised, even if it is in R D Laing's more cosy asylum? I feel this is an analogy too far. One might, though, make a case that many for leaving are suffering those paranoid delusions I mentioned.
horizon wrote:Working class (and other) communities base their beliefs, culture and politics on the need to survive. In the case of white working class communities in industrial towns, they have built up a culture of language, habit, rules and identity that has enabled them to get through slumps, poverty, ill health, insecurity and the power of the state and their bosses. They also claim rights and privileges on account of the role of their families in fighting in two world wars and many others - King, Queen and country. They want occasionally to cash in on this goodwill in the bank.
What has any of that got to do with the EU? How does membership of the EU stop me, you or anyone from having our traditional beliefs, behaviours, institutions or identities? Are we somehow less British because we have the facility of the EU as well as that of Britain? What does the EU remove from "being British"? How is different from, say, being in The Commonwealth; or NATO; or any other international organisation that agrees to do some things in a similar way, not to deny national identity but to enable it's continuance? Do leavers really think being the 51st State of the USA or a vassal of some other large predatory state of the near or actual totalitarian kind will somehow be a better arrangement than membership of the EU as an equal participant?
I suspect you're right to identify such assumptions as a driving forces of much leaver thinking. Should we just accept it despite it being so clearly the result of the propaganda of a rabid right wing press owned and run, by and for, a predatory oligarchy who don't give a toss for Britain, it's traditions or it's citizens (who they would prefer become merely their subjects).
horizon wrote:Nearly everything the EU does challenges this security and privilege: it dilutes the identity of the local community through immigration, diminishes the differentiation between countries and takes away a sense of national (and thus their) ownership of laws and regulations. It might easily be shown to ride roughshod over local values such as thrift and a suspicion of sophistication. The last foothold that these communities have in a national identity is threatened wholesale by membership of the EU.
Immigration of EU nationals and other benefits of EU membership does nothing whatsoever to dilute the identity of local communities. And people who are concerned about the influx of large foreign cultural groups and mores are far more concerned about what we might call members of The Commonwealth, especially those of the "wrong" color and/or religion". But nor do these latter do anything to dilute the British culture you, me and anyone else cares to enjoy. A mosque or a synagogue at the end of the street, along with a shop selling exotic spices at the other, does not stop us going to church or having fish and chips, does it. In fact, it adds to and enhances an always dynamic British culture, built over centuries and containing menay threads of foreign origin and influence. Our very language is an amalgam of many others from the various waves of immigrants.
If there's an obvious culprit that's destroying, neglecting and disabling many aspects of British culture and traditions it's the neoliberal hegemony, with it's side effects of austerity, isolation, neglect and persecution of "the undeserving poor", degradation of the environment, financial tricks for impoverishing all but fat cats and shareholders (even some of them) and all the rest. If anything, the EU has been a brake on the worst excesses of Tory & New Labour kow-towing to "the market" and all it's deleterious effects of our culture, traditions and institutions.
But that's not what you'll read in the The Daily Borisgraph or the Hate Mail, of course.
horizon wrote:Little wonder they support Brexit. And little wonder that their concerns are easily exploited by a right-wing press that has another agenda but also supports Brexit. To tell these communities that they are about to be taken to the cleaners is one thing, not to address their concerns (and still expect them to vote Remain) is another. There are those in these communities who can rise above this narrow demarcation and find common cause with workers of other countries; but when we are in an industrial end-game, the waggons will be circled and a bitter last stand fought out.
Well, there we are - we agree after all. Perhaps the only difference we have is a degree of sympathy as well as empathy for the deluded paranoiac voters on your part whilst I have only the empathy but no patience with people who are all too keen to accept an innocent scapegoat to be mauled rather than deal with the pack of hyenas that have so obviously been not just at the goat but at the the throats of all the useful idiot voters that have kept them in power for decades now.
When "the working class Tory vote" meant only the usual Tory nastiness, it was tolerable. Now that many of those same voters (along with the more blue-rinsed little ingerlanders) have proven willing to vote not so much only for themselves but also to destroy the very fabric of the British State and polity ....