** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 16 Sep 2019, 8:15pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:"Nothing was stopping them other than the will to do so"

Words fail me.


What else was stopping them then? If someone can move from Tallinn to Surfleet for work then someone could also move there from Redcar to take the job.
I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but I think some people have moved from Redcar in the past to work elsewhere.
Last edited by pete75 on 16 Sep 2019, 8:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 16 Sep 2019, 8:19pm

pete75 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:"Nothing was stopping them other than the will to do so"

Words fail me.


WHat else was stopping them then? If someone can move from Tallinn to Surfleet for work then someone could also move there from Redcar to take the job.


Apply some empathy.

You have a family in Redcar. Your children are in school and you have a local support network.

You have only incidental insecure minimum wage work, which together with benefits, supports your family.

You have the opportunity in surfleet of insecure minimum wage work, which together with benefits, could support your family.

You choose to stay in Redcar. Are you bone idle or what?

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Mick F
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Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 16 Sep 2019, 8:21pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:Ok.
(shrugs shoulders)

I want us out. Should have done it years and years ago. Should never have joined in the first place.
Probably too late now.

I have no issues in co-operation, no issues in trade and easy accesses, or living and working etc. Passport controls and work visas please.
We can have all these things without being united with Europe. Small step to a USE. Get out whilst we can.

It's the Tory governments that are to blame for the mess we're in.


Only a couple of days ago you were protesting loudly that you "didn't really care" one way or another.

Which is it, Mick?
I want us out.
We were asked the question - one or the other - and I voted out.
Black or White.
In or Out.
One or The Other.
Daddy or Chips.
Red or White.
Rangers or Celtic

Given a multi-choice question with shades of grey, I would want us out but not cast adrift and alone. I don't REALLY care, but I do care. I don't care enough to kill myself over it, but I do care nonetheless.

Can I put it plainer than that?

Daddy or Chips?
Mick F. Cornwall

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 16 Sep 2019, 8:24pm

Mick F wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:Ok.
(shrugs shoulders)

I want us out. Should have done it years and years ago. Should never have joined in the first place.
Probably too late now.

I have no issues in co-operation, no issues in trade and easy accesses, or living and working etc. Passport controls and work visas please.
We can have all these things without being united with Europe. Small step to a USE. Get out whilst we can.

It's the Tory governments that are to blame for the mess we're in.


Only a couple of days ago you were protesting loudly that you "didn't really care" one way or another.

Which is it, Mick?
I want us out.
We were asked the question - one or the other - and I voted out.
Black or White.
In or Out.
One or The Other.
Daddy or Chips.
Red or White.
Rangers or Celtic

Given a multi-choice question with shades of grey, I would want us out but not cast adrift and alone. I don't REALLY care, but I do care. I don't care enough to kill myself over it, but I do care nonetheless.

Can I put it plainer than that?

Daddy or Chips?


Yup, seems absolutely plain.

You care very much, but also want to claim you don't when it suits you. Completely clear.

pete75
Posts: 13696
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 16 Sep 2019, 8:25pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:"Nothing was stopping them other than the will to do so"

Words fail me.


WHat else was stopping them then? If someone can move from Tallinn to Surfleet for work then someone could also move there from Redcar to take the job.


Apply some empathy.

You have a family in Redcar. Your children are in school and you have a local support network.

You have only incidental insecure minimum wage work, which together with benefits, supports your family.

You have the opportunity in surfleet of insecure minimum wage work, which together with benefits, could support your family.

You choose to stay in Redcar. Are you bone idle or what?

I was talking about unemployed people. It's similar for someone from Tallinn with the added apprehension of moving to a foreign country with language problems amongst others. If an Estonian can do it why not a Teessider?

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 16 Sep 2019, 8:29pm

pete75 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote:
WHat else was stopping them then? If someone can move from Tallinn to Surfleet for work then someone could also move there from Redcar to take the job.


Apply some empathy.

You have a family in Redcar. Your children are in school and you have a local support network.

You have only incidental insecure minimum wage work, which together with benefits, supports your family.

You have the opportunity in surfleet of insecure minimum wage work, which together with benefits, could support your family.

You choose to stay in Redcar. Are you bone idle or what?

I was talking about unemployed people. It's similar for someone from Tallinn with the added apprehension of moving to a foreign country with language problems amongst others. If an Estonian can do it why not a Teessider?


And try again with empathy.

pete75
Posts: 13696
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 16 Sep 2019, 8:42pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Apply some empathy.

You have a family in Redcar. Your children are in school and you have a local support network.

You have only incidental insecure minimum wage work, which together with benefits, supports your family.

You have the opportunity in surfleet of insecure minimum wage work, which together with benefits, could support your family.

You choose to stay in Redcar. Are you bone idle or what?

I was talking about unemployed people. It's similar for someone from Tallinn with the added apprehension of moving to a foreign country with language problems amongst others. If an Estonian can do it why not a Teessider?


And try again with empathy.


And many of these very same people when interviewed about why they voted Brexit complained about immigrants taking the jobs. Jobs they could have had. When the Brexit crash comes along and their region is the most badly affected it will be no more than they deserve.

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Mick F
Spambuster
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Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 16 Sep 2019, 8:46pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:Yup, seems absolutely plain.
You care very much, but also want to claim you don't when it suits you. Completely clear.
You just don't get it, do you.

I care. Yes.
Do I care so much that I'm willing to make it hurt?
No.

Does it REALLY matter if we Brexit?
No, not really.

Was I asked a black and white question: Leave or Remain?
Yes.

How did I vote?
Leave.
I only had two choices.

Get it now?
If not, I give up! :shock:
Mick F. Cornwall

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 3552
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 16 Sep 2019, 8:47pm

pete75 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote:I was talking about unemployed people. It's similar for someone from Tallinn with the added apprehension of moving to a foreign country with language problems amongst others. If an Estonian can do it why not a Teessider?


And try again with empathy.


And many of these very same people when interviewed about why they voted Brexit complained about immigrants taking the jobs. Jobs they could have had. When the Brexit crash comes along and their region is the most badly affected it will be no more than they deserve.


And try again with empathy.

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 16 Sep 2019, 8:48pm

Mick F wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:Yup, seems absolutely plain.
You care very much, but also want to claim you don't when it suits you. Completely clear.
You just don't get it, do you.

I care. Yes.
Do I care so much that I'm willing to make it hurt?
No.

Does it REALLY matter if we Brexit?
No, not really.

Was I asked a black and white question: Leave or Remain?
Yes.

How did I vote?
Leave.
I only had two choices.

Get it now?
If not, I give up! :shock:


You are consistent in your inconsistency, I'll give you that.

pete75
Posts: 13696
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 16 Sep 2019, 8:52pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
And try again with empathy.


And many of these very same people when interviewed about why they voted Brexit complained about immigrants taking the jobs. Jobs they could have had. When the Brexit crash comes along and their region is the most badly affected it will be no more than they deserve.


And try again with empathy.


And try again without parroting the same comment.

Trying to think about how they voted and their views on migrants I see little or no rationality.

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 16 Sep 2019, 8:55pm

pete75 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote:
And many of these very same people when interviewed about why they voted Brexit complained about immigrants taking the jobs. Jobs they could have had. When the Brexit crash comes along and their region is the most badly affected it will be no more than they deserve.


And try again with empathy.


And try again without parroting previous comments.


You're making absolutely no attempt to understand the lives of the people you are condemning out of hand.

Apply some thought to the motivations and situations of those moving, and not moving to take insecure low paid work.

How's that?

jgurney
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Joined: 10 May 2009, 8:34am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby jgurney » 16 Sep 2019, 8:59pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote: If someone can move from Tallinn to Surfleet for work then someone could also move there from Redcar to take the job.


You have a family in Redcar. Your children are in school


Quite. Most EU migrant workers going to Lincs. were young and single. Many of Redcar's unemployed are mature people with families and homes (some owned, after 20-odd years earning in the steelworks before it closed), who are much less mobile.

Another factor is (or rather, at the height of labour migration from the EU, was) the ability to save up money that would be worth a lot more back home. A lot of the people we are discussing came here quite willing to live in cramped and ropey digs (which can be quite fun if you are young, among friends and know it is temporary) for a while before going back home with pounds that could be exchanged for a lot of their local currency. That incentive does not apply to the UK-based unemployed.

Another disincentive is the difficulty of getting housing benefit and social housing, which makes those who have it nervous of moving and therefore giving it up, for fear of a worse struggle getting it back again.

Many unemployed young people from Redcar have in fact migrated for work, but those I know have gone to London, Manchester, etc, in roles like nursing, retail management and plumbing, not farm work in Lincs.

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 16 Sep 2019, 9:04pm

jgurney wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote: If someone can move from Tallinn to Surfleet for work then someone could also move there from Redcar to take the job.


You have a family in Redcar. Your children are in school


Quite. Most EU migrant workers going to Lincs. were young and single. Many of Redcar's unemployed are mature people with families and homes (some owned, after 20-odd years earning in the steelworks before it closed), who are much less mobile.

Another factor is (or rather, at the height of labour migration from the EU, was) the ability to save up money that would be worth a lot more back home. A lot of the people we are discussing came here quite willing to live in cramped and ropey digs (which can be quite fun if you are young, among friends and know it is temporary) for a while before going back home with pounds that could be exchanged for a lot of their local currency. That incentive does not apply to the UK-based unemployed.

Another disincentive is the difficulty of getting housing benefit and social housing, which makes those who have it nervous of moving and therefore giving it up, for fear of a worse struggle getting it back again.

Many unemployed young people from Redcar have in fact migrated for work, but those I know have gone to London, Manchester, etc, in roles like nursing, retail management and plumbing, not farm work in Lincs.


Nail hit precisely on head.

Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 9:04pm

jgurney wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote: If someone can move from Tallinn to Surfleet for work then someone could also move there from Redcar to take the job.


You have a family in Redcar. Your children are in school


Quite. Most EU migrant workers going to Lincs. were young and single. Many of Redcar's unemployed are mature people with families and homes (some owned, after 20-odd years earning in the steelworks before it closed), who are much less mobile.

Another factor is (or rather, at the height of labour migration from the EU, was) the ability to save up money that would be worth a lot more back home. A lot of the people we are discussing came here quite willing to live in cramped and ropey digs (which can be quite fun if you are young, among friends and know it is temporary) for a while before going back home with pounds that could be exchanged for a lot of their local currency. That incentive does not apply to the UK-based unemployed.

Another disincentive is the difficulty of getting housing benefit and social housing, which makes those who have it nervous of moving and therefore giving it up, for fear of a worse struggle getting it back again.

Many unemployed young people from Redcar have in fact migrated for work, but those I know have gone to London, Manchester, etc, in roles like nursing, retail management and plumbing, not farm work in Lincs.

When I was younger I did something similar in the EU (though without the exchange rate considerations and no social benefits). According to the arguments made by some I would have been taking jobs from Dutch people, living in ropey digs, etc.

It's a two way thing.

Ian