** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 20 Sep 2019, 10:09am

Oldjohnw wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Remind me how did the MPs get into parliament? They weren't elected by the people by any chance, were they?

And remind me how the current PM got the top job in government?



That's easy. Divine edict. The right of kings.

I caught(by accident not design)Cameron's interview by JV yesterday on Radio 2,he was confronted by the superior class question and stumbled before finding an excuse and half hearted denial.
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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 20 Sep 2019, 10:50am

New Aspect Raised on TV last night:

Interesting report on TV last night (C4 news 19 Sept 19) about Food Banks and the need for stockpiling. Foodbanks clearly don't have the capability to stockpile in the same way as Supermarkets. But it seems the Government have ignored them and when they [Government] were contacted Dept Food & Rural Affairs (Zac Goldsmith). From the program transcript
https://www.sustainweb.org/news/sep19_channel4_no_deal_brexit_food_for_vulnerable_people/ wrote:Food supplies and food banks have questioned whether they would be responsible for securing basic supplies for vulnerable people if a no-deal Brexit led to food shortages. Earlier this month, the Food and Rural Affairs Minister Zac Goldsmith said his department was "not responsible" for the supply of food and drink to the population in an emergency
...
Interviewer: In case there was a no-deal Brexit, could you feed people?
Ray McGeady, Project Manager, Drumchapel Foodbank: No, not at the moment, no.

So Government is stepping aside from issues it might create and foodbanks don't know what might happen for the vulnerable and food supply industry is not too happy either
https://www.sustainweb.org/news/sep19_channel4_no_deal_brexit_food_for_vulnerable_people/ wrote:Well today, some major figures from the food industry, and those who help feed those most vulnerable are speaking out.

In an open letter, they call on the UK Government to "stop passing the buck", saying they were "dismayed" when the Government said it had "no legal responsibility to help vulnerable people get the food they need in the event of a no-deal Brexit". They are demanding the UK Government "immediately make available hardship funds so vulnerable people can get the food they need".


Ian

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 20 Sep 2019, 10:52am

I see Boris is so worried about members of the public putting him on the spot as he visits parts of the UK, he now has armed body guards

body guard.JPG

Vorpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 20 Sep 2019, 11:58am

merseymouth wrote:Hello Vorpal, So we could implement stricter border control without leaving the E.U.? No evidence of that because each time the issue has been raised we have been shouted down as little islanders! As I read it the imminent "Super State" will stipulate that all member states must accept a chunk of folk who have landed in mainland Europe without exception? A number of members have raised more than an eyebrow over being coerced into forced immigration.
Just because folk say that they want to cross France to get to the U.K. does not give them the right to do so, nor does it give leave for France to let them!
Just because someone lands & registers in an E.U. country why should it be accepted that they can just waltz into this country. Also as you live remote from this country why presume a right to dictate our politics, I wouldn't presume to meddle in Norwegian affairs! Maybe another case of "Multiple Citizenship"? MM

I am citizen of the UK. I am not a citizen of Norway. I'm not meddling in anyone's affairs, not dictating anything to anyone. If I could dictate, we'd never have had a referendum in the first place!

That said, the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement which, separate to the EU, eliminates most border controls between participating European countries, including Norway, which is not an EU member.

Even given membership in the EU, the UK, like all member nations can limit EU immigrants by requiring them to obtain work, not resort to benefits, and/or limit their stay. In most EU countries, citizens of other EU countries have to register their residence. they also have to demonstrate that they either have a job, or enough funds to live on (i.e. pension) in order to stay for more than a certain period of time (IIRC, the minimum defined by EU law is 3 months, but some countries allow longer stays). The amount of benefits available to EU migrants varies hugely from one country to another. In some countries, citizens of other EU countries can only obtain medical care with the European Health insurance card or for life threatening emergencies, and very limited other benefits. In other countries, just registering yourself as resident makes you eligible for most of the same benefits citizens enjoy. Luckily, the EU is not a super state, and leaves most of that stuff up to the individual member states.

Similarly, while asylum seekers are granted the right to apply for asylum, under international law, the laws do not define how countries grant asylum. The UK is actually fairly strict about this and 2018, granted asylum to about 20,000 people, less than half the numbers (48,000) granted in 2001.

According to the office for national statistics, in the year ending March 2019, 612,000 people moved to the UK (immigration) and 385,000 people left the UK (emigration).

In the year ending June 2019, there were 256,000 National Insurance number (NINo) registrations from non-EU nationals, an increase of 32% on the previous year. Most of these are coming for study.

In the year ending March 2019, the International Passenger Survey (IPS) estimated 218,000 people arrived in the UK intending to stay for a year or more for formal study. Over the last year, there has been an increase in non-EU immigration for study, particularly from Asian citizens.

If we look solely at the EU regulations covering refugees, leaving the EU may do more harm than good, as the Dublin regulation currently allows the UK to send some immigrants back to other EU countries. If we leave, we shall have to renegotiate an agreement with the EU, and with substantially less leverage than we had as a member.

So, please explain how leaving the EU is going change immigration to the UK.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 20 Sep 2019, 12:00pm

horizon wrote:windmiller: you are right in that there is a mismatch between the Leave vote and the House of Commons as it is currently comprised. Resolving that is only one election away.

Didn't we already have one election since the Leave vote? The mismatch is clearly the will of the people!
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Audax67
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Audax67 » 20 Sep 2019, 1:24pm

merseymouth wrote:Hello Vorpal, So we could implement stricter border control without leaving the E.U.? No evidence of that because each time the issue has been raised we have been shouted down as little islanders! As I read it the imminent "Super State" will stipulate that all member states must accept a chunk of folk who have landed in mainland Europe without exception? A number of members have raised more than an eyebrow over being coerced into forced immigration.
Just because folk say that they want to cross France to get to the U.K. does not give them the right to do so, nor does it give leave for France to let them!
Just because someone lands & registers in an E.U. country why should it be accepted that they can just waltz into this country. Also as you live remote from this country why presume a right to dictate our politics, I wouldn't presume to meddle in Norwegian affairs! Maybe another case of "Multiple Citizenship"? MM


Maybe I'm a bit late to the party, but...

Firstly, any EU government can veto any EU treaty or agreement: witness the promises of Ireland & France's to veto the Mercosur treaty if Bolsonaro doesn't lay off the Amazon, and Austria's threat to join them.

Secondly, the UK is not obliged to accept refugees under any EU agreement but under a UN treaty dating from the early 50s.

Thirdly, why should France implement the UK's xenophobia? Don't forget that these people are piling up at cross-Channel ports and living at French taxpayers' expense because of the UK's intransigence.
Have we got time for another cuppa?

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 20 Sep 2019, 5:03pm

Psamathe wrote:New Aspect Raised on TV last night:

Interesting report on TV last night (C4 news 19 Sept 19) about Food Banks and the need for stockpiling. Foodbanks clearly don't have the capability to stockpile in the same way as Supermarkets. But it seems the Government have ignored them and when they [Government] were contacted Dept Food & Rural Affairs (Zac Goldsmith). From the program transcript
https://www.sustainweb.org/news/sep19_channel4_no_deal_brexit_food_for_vulnerable_people/ wrote:Food supplies and food banks have questioned whether they would be responsible for securing basic supplies for vulnerable people if a no-deal Brexit led to food shortages. Earlier this month, the Food and Rural Affairs Minister Zac Goldsmith said his department was "not responsible" for the supply of food and drink to the population in an emergency
...
Interviewer: In case there was a no-deal Brexit, could you feed people?
Ray McGeady, Project Manager, Drumchapel Foodbank: No, not at the moment, no.

So Government is stepping aside from issues it might create and foodbanks don't know what might happen for the vulnerable and food supply industry is not too happy either
https://www.sustainweb.org/news/sep19_channel4_no_deal_brexit_food_for_vulnerable_people/ wrote:Well today, some major figures from the food industry, and those who help feed those most vulnerable are speaking out.

In an open letter, they call on the UK Government to "stop passing the buck", saying they were "dismayed" when the Government said it had "no legal responsibility to help vulnerable people get the food they need in the event of a no-deal Brexit". They are demanding the UK Government "immediately make available hardship funds so vulnerable people can get the food they need".


Ian

I'd thought about this a few weeks ago and used to donate regularly to food banks. I've stopped now because of Brexit. According to what we know of the demographic of Brexit voters food bank users are most likely to be leavers. If they suffer food shortages after Brexit they're getting what they voted for and it'll damn well serve them right. Let Farage , Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al feed them.

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 20 Sep 2019, 5:22pm

pete75 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:New Aspect Raised on TV last night:

Interesting report on TV last night (C4 news 19 Sept 19) about Food Banks and the need for stockpiling. Foodbanks clearly don't have the capability to stockpile in the same way as Supermarkets. But it seems the Government have ignored them and when they [Government] were contacted Dept Food & Rural Affairs (Zac Goldsmith). From the program transcript
https://www.sustainweb.org/news/sep19_channel4_no_deal_brexit_food_for_vulnerable_people/ wrote:Food supplies and food banks have questioned whether they would be responsible for securing basic supplies for vulnerable people if a no-deal Brexit led to food shortages. Earlier this month, the Food and Rural Affairs Minister Zac Goldsmith said his department was "not responsible" for the supply of food and drink to the population in an emergency
...
Interviewer: In case there was a no-deal Brexit, could you feed people?
Ray McGeady, Project Manager, Drumchapel Foodbank: No, not at the moment, no.

So Government is stepping aside from issues it might create and foodbanks don't know what might happen for the vulnerable and food supply industry is not too happy either
https://www.sustainweb.org/news/sep19_channel4_no_deal_brexit_food_for_vulnerable_people/ wrote:Well today, some major figures from the food industry, and those who help feed those most vulnerable are speaking out.

In an open letter, they call on the UK Government to "stop passing the buck", saying they were "dismayed" when the Government said it had "no legal responsibility to help vulnerable people get the food they need in the event of a no-deal Brexit". They are demanding the UK Government "immediately make available hardship funds so vulnerable people can get the food they need".


Ian

I'd thought about this a few weeks ago and used to donate regularly to food banks. I've stopped now because of Brexit. According to what we know of the demographic of Brexit voters food bank users are most likely to be leavers. If they suffer food shortages after Brexit they're getting what they voted for and it'll damn well serve them right. Let Farage , Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al feed them.


So basically you politicize your charitable morality. That is the same kind of narrow intolerant mindset that labels leavers as racists, homophobes, uneducated and ignorant. I would guess that the majority of people who are desperate enough to rely on food banks could not give a toss about Brexit one way or another.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Sep 2019, 5:33pm

pete75 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:New Aspect Raised on TV last night:

Interesting report on TV last night (C4 news 19 Sept 19) about Food Banks and the need for stockpiling. Foodbanks clearly don't have the capability to stockpile in the same way as Supermarkets. But it seems the Government have ignored them and when they [Government] were contacted Dept Food & Rural Affairs (Zac Goldsmith). From the program transcript
https://www.sustainweb.org/news/sep19_channel4_no_deal_brexit_food_for_vulnerable_people/ wrote:Food supplies and food banks have questioned whether they would be responsible for securing basic supplies for vulnerable people if a no-deal Brexit led to food shortages. Earlier this month, the Food and Rural Affairs Minister Zac Goldsmith said his department was "not responsible" for the supply of food and drink to the population in an emergency
...
Interviewer: In case there was a no-deal Brexit, could you feed people?
Ray McGeady, Project Manager, Drumchapel Foodbank: No, not at the moment, no.

So Government is stepping aside from issues it might create and foodbanks don't know what might happen for the vulnerable and food supply industry is not too happy either
https://www.sustainweb.org/news/sep19_channel4_no_deal_brexit_food_for_vulnerable_people/ wrote:Well today, some major figures from the food industry, and those who help feed those most vulnerable are speaking out.

In an open letter, they call on the UK Government to "stop passing the buck", saying they were "dismayed" when the Government said it had "no legal responsibility to help vulnerable people get the food they need in the event of a no-deal Brexit". They are demanding the UK Government "immediately make available hardship funds so vulnerable people can get the food they need".


Ian

I'd thought about this a few weeks ago and used to donate regularly to food banks. I've stopped now because of Brexit. According to what we know of the demographic of Brexit voters food bank users are most likely to be leavers. If they suffer food shortages after Brexit they're getting what they voted for and it'll damn well serve them right. Let Farage , Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al feed them.


Well, thanks for demonstrating what we already knew - leave voters don't have a monopoly on failures in logic which result in the poorest suffering.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 20 Sep 2019, 5:44pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:New Aspect Raised on TV last night:

Interesting report on TV last night (C4 news 19 Sept 19) about Food Banks and the need for stockpiling. Foodbanks clearly don't have the capability to stockpile in the same way as Supermarkets. But it seems the Government have ignored them and when they [Government] were contacted Dept Food & Rural Affairs (Zac Goldsmith). From the program transcript
So Government is stepping aside from issues it might create and foodbanks don't know what might happen for the vulnerable and food supply industry is not too happy either

Ian

I'd thought about this a few weeks ago and used to donate regularly to food banks. I've stopped now because of Brexit. According to what we know of the demographic of Brexit voters food bank users are most likely to be leavers. If they suffer food shortages after Brexit they're getting what they voted for and it'll damn well serve them right. Let Farage , Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al feed them.


Well, thanks for demonstrating what we already knew - leave voters don't have a monopoly on failures in logic which result in the poorest suffering.


When anyone votes in an election there may well be bad consequences. It's a failure of logic not to recognise that nor to realise there may be personal suffering as consequence of how you vote.
Last edited by pete75 on 20 Sep 2019, 5:54pm, edited 1 time in total.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 20 Sep 2019, 5:53pm

windmiller wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:New Aspect Raised on TV last night:

Interesting report on TV last night (C4 news 19 Sept 19) about Food Banks and the need for stockpiling. Foodbanks clearly don't have the capability to stockpile in the same way as Supermarkets. But it seems the Government have ignored them and when they [Government] were contacted Dept Food & Rural Affairs (Zac Goldsmith). From the program transcript
So Government is stepping aside from issues it might create and foodbanks don't know what might happen for the vulnerable and food supply industry is not too happy either

Ian

I'd thought about this a few weeks ago and used to donate regularly to food banks. I've stopped now because of Brexit. According to what we know of the demographic of Brexit voters food bank users are most likely to be leavers. If they suffer food shortages after Brexit they're getting what they voted for and it'll damn well serve them right. Let Farage , Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al feed them.


So basically you politicize your charitable morality. That is the same kind of narrow intolerant mindset that labels leavers as racists, homophobes, uneducated and ignorant. I would guess that the majority of people who are desperate enough to rely on food banks could not give a toss about Brexit one way or another.

That's not what analyses of referendum votes say. A vast majority of the unemployed voted to leave. If people were stupid enough to vote in a way that make them worse off they should suffer any consequences.
But yes why should I give charitable donations to help people with the views you say leavers have and are commonplace amongst people with the sort of far right views you hold. I sooner give the money to something else. In nay case I don't suppose the 800 quid or so I make in donations to local food bank in a year will make damn all difference. It's a symbolic gesture really and I'll be giving the money to another charitable cause.
You seem to be taking the moral high ground - how much do you donate?

merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 20 Sep 2019, 6:38pm

Question, How many posters on this Forum are prepared to give up their home & or Job to people who insist that they must be allowed into the U.K.?
MM

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 20 Sep 2019, 7:15pm

merseymouth wrote:Question, How many posters on this Forum are prepared to give up their home & or Job to people who insist that they must be allowed into the U.K.?
MM

I'd do a bit of reading about "zero sum immigration".

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 20 Sep 2019, 7:21pm

windmiller wrote:
pete75 wrote:I'd thought about this a few weeks ago and used to donate regularly to food banks. I've stopped now because of Brexit. According to what we know of the demographic of Brexit voters food bank users are most likely to be leavers. If they suffer food shortages after Brexit they're getting what they voted for and it'll damn well serve them right. Let Farage , Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al feed them.


So basically you politicize your charitable morality. [...]

Er, hang on. pete75 might just have stopped donating because he has less money coming in because of the economic slowdown caused by Brexit. He might be paid by Thomas Cook, for all you know!

merseymouth wrote:Question, How many posters on this Forum are prepared to give up their home & or Job to people who insist that they must be allowed into the U.K.?

Why is anyone going to answer your leading question when you won't answer their basic question? Why did you vote for more refugees to be processed in the UK if you hate them so much? Such absurd actions make Leavers the creators of their own nightmares.
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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 20 Sep 2019, 8:33pm

pete75 wrote:I'd thought about this a few weeks ago and used to donate regularly to food banks. I've stopped now because of Brexit. According to what we know of the demographic of Brexit voters food bank users are most likely to be leavers. If they suffer food shortages after Brexit they're getting what they voted for and it'll damn well serve them right. Let Farage , Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al feed them.
I'm surprised and quite a bit shocked by this statement.

We have had a food bank operating in our town (Burgess Hill) for the past six years or so. They distribute from the local Parish Church. I have no idea of what political side the 'clients' come from, nor do I think this is pertinent. These are people in serious difficulties in this ongoing period of austerity, and the food bank is there to help to tide them over the worst of times.

In any case, our town, which returned an overwhelming LibDem+Green majority at the last Council elections, would appear to be strongly Remain-supporting. As if that, too, had any relevance!

We regularly put something in the food bank collection box at the local supermarkets. Not much, and obviously nothing perishable. I don't mind admitting this fact, but regarding any other charity stuff, I think I'll keep it to myself. I don't know whether the stuff at the local supermarkets goes to the local food bank or elsewhere, but I hope it gets used.

Anyway, do you really mean to say "damn well serve them right"? How do you know if they 'deserve it' or whatever? Anyway, if there are food shortages after No-Deal, they will affect the better-off and less-well-off in equal numbers. It is likely to be, for example, fresh vegetables - bought in volume by the middle-classes - that suffer more than other foods.

So think again about what you have posted. Sorry but I find it quite unacceptable - and don't imagine I'm siding with WM in saying this!
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