** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 46812
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 18 Oct 2019, 5:13pm

mjr wrote: ..if only the UK had a head of government that did that instead of points-scoring and piffle-waffle.
Has UK got a head of government? :wink:
Mick F. Cornwall

merseymouth
Posts: 1116
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 18 Oct 2019, 5:20pm

Hi Psmathe, Always view the creation of such economic models as about as reliable as feeling seaweed to predict weather!
My rheumatism is more accurate :lol: :lol: :lol: . MM

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4034
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 18 Oct 2019, 5:47pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi Psmathe, Always view the creation of such economic models as about as reliable as feeling seaweed to predict weather!
My rheumatism is more accurate :lol: :lol: :lol: . MM

Your alternative?

Government policy should be entirely evidence free? Government shouldn't plan at all?

Everyone, remainer or brexiter, should be afraid of a government that either 1) doesn't have a clue how its policies will pan out, or 2) wants to hide its findings from the public.

merseymouth
Posts: 1116
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 18 Oct 2019, 5:58pm

Hi again, Economists are like Barristers, - Ask 3 Barristers for an opinion on a matter and you'll get at least 6 answers! MM

User avatar
Spinners
Posts: 1575
Joined: 6 Dec 2008, 6:58pm
Location: Port Talbot

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Spinners » 18 Oct 2019, 6:01pm

bovlomov wrote:
Everyone, remainer or brexiter, should be afraid of a government that either 1) doesn't have a clue how its policies will pan out, or 2) wants to hide its findings from the public.



Sounds like every Government we've ever had :lol:
Cycling UK Life Member
PBP Ancien (2007)

reohn2
Posts: 36401
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 18 Oct 2019, 6:07pm

Spinners wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Everyone, remainer or brexiter, should be afraid of a government that either 1) doesn't have a clue how its policies will pan out, or 2) wants to hide its findings from the public.



Sounds like every Government we've ever had :lol:

And why we're in the current mess!
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4034
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 18 Oct 2019, 6:12pm

Spinners wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Everyone, remainer or brexiter, should be afraid of a government that either 1) doesn't have a clue how its policies will pan out, or 2) wants to hide its findings from the public.



Sounds like every Government we've ever had :lol:

Well, yes. Evidence based policy is a rare thing. But when the country is about to embark on the biggest change is living memory, you'd think someone would have done a few calculations about the possible effects.

This idea, that economists get it wrong so there's no point, I find extremely dangerous. It's like the argument that all politicians are as bad as each other. Basically, it concedes that everything is a race to the bottom and that there is no point trying. Economist do get things wrong and many politicians do lie. But there is a huge difference between a world of imperfect forecasts and imperfect politicians, and a world of reckless policymaking and thoroughly dishonest rogue politicians (such as Johnson). I'd prefer to live in the former.

reohn2
Posts: 36401
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 18 Oct 2019, 6:17pm

bovlomov wrote:
Spinners wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Everyone, remainer or brexiter, should be afraid of a government that either 1) doesn't have a clue how its policies will pan out, or 2) wants to hide its findings from the public.



Sounds like every Government we've ever had :lol:

Well, yes. Evidence based policy is a rare thing. But when the country is about to embark on the biggest change is living memory, you'd think someone would have done a few calculations about the possible effects.

I think they have but aren't letting anyone know.There's been two court cases recently to shed light on what the government didn't want even the HofC to debate and decide on!

This idea, that economists get it wrong so there's no point, I find extremely dangerous. It's like the argument that all politicians are as bad as each other. Basically, it concedes that everything is a race to the bottom and that there is no point trying. Economist do get things wrong and many politicians do lie. But there is a huge difference between a world of imperfect forecasts and imperfect politicians, and a world of reckless policymaking and thoroughly dishonest rogue politicians (such as Johnson). I'd prefer to live in the former.

Me too.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

kwackers
Posts: 13754
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 18 Oct 2019, 6:22pm

bovlomov wrote:Well, yes. Evidence based policy is a rare thing. But when the country is about to embark on the biggest change is living memory, you'd think someone would have done a few calculations about the possible effects.

This idea, that economists get it wrong so there's no point, I find extremely dangerous. It's like the argument that all politicians are as bad as each other. Basically, it concedes that everything is a race to the bottom and that there is no point trying. Economist do get things wrong and many politicians do lie. But there is a huge difference between a world of imperfect forecasts and imperfect politicians, and a world of reckless policymaking and thoroughly dishonest rogue politicians (such as Johnson). I'd prefer to live in the former.

Your average Joe plus the internet is now a match for any expert.

Gut feelings and ignorance trump experts and facts every day of the week.

User avatar
Spinners
Posts: 1575
Joined: 6 Dec 2008, 6:58pm
Location: Port Talbot

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Spinners » 18 Oct 2019, 8:51pm

kwackers wrote:
Gut feelings and ignorance trump experts and facts every day of the week.



Trump, experts and facts... all in the one sentence. How rare is that :wink:
Cycling UK Life Member
PBP Ancien (2007)

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9537
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 18 Oct 2019, 9:32pm

Psamathe wrote:I see that the Government if refusing to release crucial information to allow MPs to amke an informed decision.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-latest-chancellor-sajid-javid-boris-johnson-economy-damage-a9161391.html wrote:Brexit: Chancellor refuses to publish analysis of economic damage from Boris Johnson's deal before MPs vote
The chancellor is refusing to publish an analysis of the likely economic damage from the new Brexit deal ahead of Saturday’s crunch vote, amid suspicions it would reveal a £130bn hit.

Senior MPs have condemned as “unacceptable” a failure to publish the information, when the Commons is being asked to make its most momentous decision in decades.

So Piffle and his cronies think it best MPs make an un-informed decision by withholding available and relevant and crucial information from them. To me it would seem impossible to make a sensible decision if you don't have the facts available.

Maybe it's just another illustration about how daft our politics in the UK has become (and Leave supporters want to give more power to these people in Westminster!).
N
Ian


Of course the logical thing to do is accept the situation!

Without full and relevant information it would be irresponsible to vote in support of the deal on Saturday... this could so easily backfire

kwackers
Posts: 13754
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 18 Oct 2019, 10:10pm

Spinners wrote:Trump, experts and facts... all in the one sentence. How rare is that :wink:

These days, not very... :wink:

pete75
Posts: 11819
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 18 Oct 2019, 11:58pm

reohn2 wrote:
pete75 wrote:No they'r enot professionals.
Who said being a professional was a badge of honesty in every case. I certainly didn't. What i said was that your claim that professional people are like drug dealers is wrong.

And my point was that professionals can get upto illegal practices which cause distress and death just like drug dealers


What you actually said was ""Professionals" manipulate people to start unnecessary wars that kill millions to sell arms and associated equipement is that any better than drug dealers?"
Very different to what you claim you said.

merseymouth
Posts: 1116
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 19 Oct 2019, 8:16am

Hi Roubaixtuesday, Let me correct my wording to explain a constantly raised point.
The way you treat all who seek a proper orderly ingress into the U.K. is as follows - You don't out and out accuse any of us of "Being" xenophobic, what you do though is accuse us of "Being on a "Xenophobic Agenda", always creating a short mental leap to direct accusation!
Well we now have to be very careful over using any words at all these days, so many words and phrases our no taboo! To point terms that have been at the core of legal training are now deemed to be terms of abuse. We have "Cut Throat Politics", but we can't use terms such as "Cut Throat Defence", ironic isn't it?
I'm told that language is constantly evolving, well that is as may be, but if words that have been in service with an agreed meaning get hi-jack for a completely different meaning then trouble is bound to arise!
If we take the trouble to explain fully be may get labelled verbose, so damned if we do, damned if we don't :( . TTFN MM

reohn2
Posts: 36401
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 19 Oct 2019, 8:26am

pete75 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
pete75 wrote:No they'r enot professionals.
Who said being a professional was a badge of honesty in every case. I certainly didn't. What i said was that your claim that professional people are like drug dealers is wrong.

And my point was that professionals can get upto illegal practices which cause distress and death just like drug dealers


What you actually said was ""Professionals" manipulate people to start unnecessary wars that kill millions to sell arms and associated equipement is that any better than drug dealers?"
Very different to what you claim you said.

OK Pete you win,it ain't worth the hassle,have a nice day :)
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.