** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 19 Oct 2019, 8:44am

Quickly. Let's take a step back from government/parliament/politician-bashing and look at the basics.

To me it's stark and simple. Theresa's deal[s] were bad. Bojo's deal is worse. No-deal is worst of all. Everyone knows what I want.

If I were an MP, I would still vote against Bojo's deal. Even if this brought about the worst outcome. There's always hope of recovery, given time.
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 19 Oct 2019, 8:55am

You've summed it up for me too. Thanks.
Mick F. Cornwall

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 19 Oct 2019, 9:22am

There you are. Agreement (sort of) - even if our ultimate objectives are quite the opposite..
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 19 Oct 2019, 9:36am

One thing's for sure,the whole debacle has shown up UK politics for what it is,a class ridden mess.
To think anyone would vote in a GE for such a complete and utter self seeking moron,clown and liar for one thing-Brexit-,goes to show how shortsighted the UK electorate really is.
Still waiting for any facts that show the UK will benefit in any way by leaving the EU,leaves me in no doubt that half the country will believe any jaded bluster and lies without any facts to back up such trope,told to them by self seeking millionaires and billionaires,some of whom don't even live in the UK,and whose sole remit is to make themselves richer and more powerful.
People wishing to turn this country into a corrupt tax haven for anyone who wishes aviod paying tax and accumulate more of wealth and power whilst the ordinary wo/man beg for whatever crumbs fall from their table.
I find the whole circus utterly bizarre and the people supporting such a mess as bad as the authors of it,you're being hoodwinked and can't even see it!

Rant over.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 19 Oct 2019, 9:46am

661-Pete wrote:
To me it's stark and simple. Theresa's deal[s] were bad. Bojo's deal is worse. No-deal is worst of all. Everyone knows what I want.


While I would like the same as you, I wonder if you would care to expand on why you think it's worse than Ms May's?

As I read , it is much the same with the exception of the Irish question.
Personally I can see some benefits to having a customs frontier in the Irish Sea rather than across the island of Ireland.
The mere irony of the mess there is enough to make one weep.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 19 Oct 2019, 10:02am

Just reading the "Live" article from Guardian (updated throughout day as events occur) and Johnson makes statements and my first thought every time is "lies" - not because of what he says but because he is now so untrustworthy I think he can no longer tell the differenc ebetween truth and lies. Either that or he is so ready to reneg on an agreement anything he agrees to might be void 20 seconds later.
e.g just reported
“Our National Health Service will not be on the table” in future trade talks, Johnson tells MPs.

Does anybody believe that will hold true at lunchtime?

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 19 Oct 2019, 11:02am

Psamathe wrote:Just reading the "Live" article from Guardian (updated throughout day as events occur) and Johnson makes statements and my first thought every time is "lies" - not because of what he says but because he is now so untrustworthy I think he can no longer tell the differenc ebetween truth and lies. Either that or he is so ready to reneg on an agreement anything he agrees to might be void 20 seconds later.
e.g just reported
“Our National Health Service will not be on the table” in future trade talks, Johnson tells MPs.

Does anybody believe that will hold true at lunchtime?

Ian

He's like Trump in that respect,I don't think he even cares.His lies are 'in the moment' quite simply he makes it up as he goes along.I don't believe he has any kind of strategy other than saying what comes to mind at the time.
There's no future projection with such people they just hope people will forget what they've said because it was yesterday and as yesterday doesn't exist anymore it isn't there.
So long as those around them allow them to carry on in their lies and don't nail them on it they'll trip merrily along in their self made world of lies and deceit.
Such people are never wrong and so don't need to conform to any standard set for the job they do or position they hold.
The worst of it is that it's contagious to those around them or the people who support them,they actually begin to believe the lies they themselves tell.
The brexit cult(for that is what it is) is a classic example of belief in outright barefaced liars,Davies,Farage,BoJo,Fox,Gove and Raab's,and lie peddlers who funded and backed these people are their heroes and saviors :shock: .

The whole shebang is built on a foundation of lies and deciet,believed and swallowed by the poor schmucks who'll suffer the most when or if the brown smelly stuff all hits the fan.
Those instigators of such lunacy and lies won't feel a thing because their £millions will cushion them from the impact,£millions made from the schmucks who believe in them,money that can be moved around to where it best serves them to retain their elevated positions,and all done under the auspices of upright decency,these people are gutter rats in thousand £ suites whisked around in expensive cars with blacked out windows,Sickening.
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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 19 Oct 2019, 11:08am

The NHS was not the biggest worry, there is still the danger that we will no longer be able to cap the price of drugs

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 19 Oct 2019, 11:23am

Cunobelin wrote:The NHS was not the biggest worry, there is still the danger that we will no longer be able to cap the price of drugs


Thats one of the big faulures of USA health care?

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 19 Oct 2019, 11:30am

mercalia wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:The NHS was not the biggest worry, there is still the danger that we will no longer be able to cap the price of drugs


Thats one of the big faulures of USA health care?

All depending which side of the fence you're on,the drugs companies would claim it's legitimate business practice to make as much money as possible from sick suffering people by providing eyewatering prices for the products.
Whilst the health insurance companies also do the same,whilst similarly using any small print in their well written policies to escape paying out for such treatment.
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mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 19 Oct 2019, 11:45am

so any one here think Boris has done a good job? I do . ( though I hope he fails to get it thru ) Most here have presented him as some kind of buffoon, well he has managed to get rid of the backstop that gave the EU a veto that was intrinsic to Mays deal & her demise. Now Nth Ireland have control and can change it every 4 years. Of course the EU thinks there will never be a majority to exit the arrangement & it does undermine the power sharing between the 2 factions, but it is better than May's? So quite an accomplishment? I still do wonder though how it all works with any trade deals the UK agrees eg Trumps chickens, if Nth Ireland has to follow EU regulations. puzzled.

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 19 Oct 2019, 12:11pm

mercalia wrote:so any one here think Boris has done a good job? I do .


AIUI, Johnson won the backing of the ERG by going for a harder Brexit; he won the backing of the EU by creating the border in the Irish Sea. So he shafts the Unionists (no skin off my nose but they might feel differently) and gets a harder Brexit and he gets his deal. The gamble is that the ERG stay on board and compensate for the loss of DUP votes. So it's tight but if he loses then he has a winning hand for the General Election. Yes, clever, if you think that turning Britain (not the UK, that's gone) into a Third World banana state is a good thing.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 19 Oct 2019, 12:19pm

mercalia wrote:so any one here think Boris has done a good job? I do . ( though I hope he fails to get it thru ) Most here have presented him as some kind of buffoon, well he has managed to get rid of the backstop that gave the EU a veto that was intrinsic to Mays deal & her demise. Now Nth Ireland have control and can change it every 4 years. Of course the EU thinks there will never be a majority to exit the arrangement & it does undermine the power sharing between the 2 factions, but it is better than May's? So quite an accomplishment? I still do wonder though how it all works with any trade deals the UK agrees eg Trumps chickens, if Nth Ireland has to follow EU regulations. puzzled.

All he did was to revert to something the EU previously proposed but was rejected by Ms May (and revert to something he had previously forcefully said "no Prime Minister could ever agree to" - a Customs Border in the Irish Sea). NI's control is not quite what it seems because should they ever vote to discontinue the arrangements then that kicks of a period of negotiation with the EU about the border arrangements.

The biggest changes are to the Political Statement (non-binding) which the EU always said they were happy to change. The political statement has changed to a position that will be better for the ERG and worse for UK business, economy, jobs - I don't call that an "achievement".

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 19 Oct 2019, 12:25pm

mercalia wrote:so any one here think Boris has done a good job.

His deal required him to do something he said, only a few weeks ago, was utterly unacceptable, and something May said no PM could ever do.

I know Johnson has no beliefs beyond self interest, but discarding even his pretended principles so casually surely can't be seen as a triumph. Still, the BBC is cheering him along, so it's all good.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 19 Oct 2019, 12:29pm

horizon wrote:
mercalia wrote:so any one here think Boris has done a good job? I do .


AIUI, Johnson won the backing of the ERG by going for a harder Brexit; he won the backing of the EU by creating the border in the Irish Sea. So he shafts the Unionists (no skin off my nose but they might feel differently) and gets a harder Brexit and he gets his deal. The gamble is that the ERG stay on board and compensate for the loss of DUP votes. So it's tight but if he loses then he has a winning hand for the General Election. Yes, clever, if you think that turning Britain (not the UK, that's gone) into a Third World banana state is a good thing.


is it a harder Brexit? That is only true if the trade talks go a certain way?. This is only the exit agreement? So every thing is up for grabs later? We can if we want have a free trade deal that aligns us with the EU as Labour wants or not. The fear over May's deal is it denied us these options? So it is an achievment to separate the two phases that the EU tried to connect to the Uks detriment?
Last edited by mercalia on 19 Oct 2019, 12:33pm, edited 2 times in total.