** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 20 Oct 2019, 11:51am

kwackers wrote:I see BoJo sent the letter but didn't sign it.
......
But IMO such childishness from our highest representative doesn't do us many favours when viewed from outside the country.
There was a time when the UK was looked up to, now we're just a comedy country, a parody to have poked fun at.
I doubt we'll ever recover from that.

I agree.

I find it interesting how quickly Tusk has acted (or will be acting). Conservatives and commentators were talking about how the EU would sit on it for an age before getting round to reviewing and considering, etc.. I read that Tusk's "may take a few days" timescales (and the EU Ambassadors meeting today to discuss the UK developments) show the (low) regard the EU hold for Johnson. Maybe all his insults over the longer term are now telling in how they react to his requests?

Ian

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Oct 2019, 11:54am

The more I see of Tusk the more I like him. Good political operator, rather better than ours, by and large

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 20 Oct 2019, 11:55am

Once again, Labour (or Corbyn) all over the place, so nobody knows where they stand
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/20/labour-could-back-brexit-bill-if-second-referendum-attached-says-starmer wrote:Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, suggested Labour could vote for Johnson’s deal if a second referendum was added to the withdrawal agreement bill
....
He went much further than his party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who has previously said Labour could not vote for Johnson’s deal even with a second referendum attached.

Ian

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Oct 2019, 11:59am

Corbyn is now semi-detached and has been for some time. Principle has become dogma.

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 20 Oct 2019, 12:06pm

Good summary of Piffle and scrutiny in the Observer editorial
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/19/observer-view-on-boris-johnson-sorry-brexit-deal wrote:Boris Johnson is a prime minister without a mandate. He has never faced an election and has lost every vote he has put to the House of Commons. Yet time and again he has proved his willingness to ride roughshod over parliament in order to get his way.

Yesterday was no different: MPs were disgracefully given just a few hours to scrutinise the terms of the most important decision the country has faced in decades.

For me, my red highlight summarises how disgraceful this whole process has become.

Ian

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Sweep
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Sweep » 20 Oct 2019, 12:07pm

pete75 wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:While there is some merit in the idea that Beeching formed the roots of Brexit by isolating rural and outlying communities, it would be folly to attribute too much of the blame there.IMV.

But it didn't. Most of the rural areas that had railways taken away by Beeching already had bus routes providing a much better passenger service than trains. In my own area the Bourne-Sleaford line close to passengers as early as 1930 because the buses had taken most of the passenger traffic. In rural areas the stations were often some way from settlements because the lines followed the best route rather than having to routed through a relatively small settlement at extra expense. The buses picked people up near to were they lived.
Here is a pre Beeching 1" OS map of rural Lincs. Look how far apart the lines and stations are and how few settlements were actually served by a railway station.
If, and it's a big if, isolation of rural communities has happened and was a root of Brexit then the loss of rural bus services would have had a far greater effect than the loss of railways.

Well quite.
First they took the railways, then they took the buses.
The same trend.
Back to the spoilt london and south east.
In the north i cycle past many bus stops that are purely decorative.
Sweep

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 20 Oct 2019, 12:43pm

I posted this in another thread but it seems very apt after his latest little act of not signing the delay letter and sending another one to undermine it?
Image

The next attempt by parliament wont make that mistake again, will dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s
Last edited by mercalia on 20 Oct 2019, 12:47pm, edited 2 times in total.

merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 20 Oct 2019, 12:44pm

Hello again, In my 70+ years I have seen so many changes on the ground, but also what words one is allowed to use without being called offensive! It is now at the stage where one can't say anything to move things forward.
First World, New World, Third World all have been used then abused as Inappropriate!
Developing Countries is now viewed as terms of abuse, yet that is also a no-no term.
Somehow I get the feeling that nothing will be acceptable to some folk, but even saying will be viewed as an offence?
The way the world moved on after the two world wars has proved to be a real problem, with various power groups exerting pressures which have caused serious imbalance in the way the world, technology & economies have been addressed.
The USSR's 5 year plans & such likes have left many countries with issues since the collapse of the Soviet Empire and also it's supposed independent satellite countries being left to the forces of the Free Market!
The fall of Dictators has left a void to create instability, Albania, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia all have added to the complexity of finding a solution.
That is just in one region. Throw into the mix the Baltic States, Cuba, various Latin & South American countries and you now have global instability, with each of the countries having a population that desires the big idea of rampant consumerism, everyone wants the TV image of "The Good-life"!
If they can't achieve it in their own country they will demand to be allowed to have access wherever they desire, that is human nature. But it also leads to inhuman nature, "Law of the Untamed Wilderness", I'm too scared to type J*n*le. But that is where we are at!
The haves and the have-nots has been the poser since the stone age, so you tell me how we move forward? MM

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Oct 2019, 12:57pm

merseymouth wrote:Hello again, In my 70+ years I have seen so many changes on the ground, but also what words one is allowed to use without being called offensive! It is now at the stage where one can't say anything to move things forward.
First World, New World, Third World all have been used then abused as Inappropriate!
Developing Countries is now viewed as terms of abuse, yet that is also a no-no term.
Somehow I get the feeling that nothing will be acceptable to some folk, but even saying will be viewed as an offence?
The way the world moved on after the two world wars has proved to be a real problem, with various power groups exerting pressures which have caused serious imbalance in the way the world, technology & economies have been addressed.
The USSR's 5 year plans & such likes have left many countries with issues since the collapse of the Soviet Empire and also it's supposed independent satellite countries being left to the forces of the Free Market!
The fall of Dictators has left a void to create instability, Albania, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia all have added to the complexity of finding a solution.
That is just in one region. Throw into the mix the Baltic States, Cuba, various Latin & South American countries and you now have global instability, with each of the countries having a population that desires the big idea of rampant consumerism, everyone wants the TV image of "The Good-life"!
If they can't achieve it in their own country they will demand to be allowed to have access wherever they desire, that is human nature. But it also leads to inhuman nature, "Law of the Untamed Wilderness", I'm too scared to type J*n*le. But that is where we are at!
The haves and the have-nots has been the poser since the stone age, so you tell me how we move forward? MM

Values and language move on. Labelling countries as holding out 'begging bowls' doesn't strike you as something that might just be unacceptable, especially as you seek to advance an argument?

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 20 Oct 2019, 1:26pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Debs wrote:Did anyone spot the most ironic moment of yesterday's parliamentary session?...
When Johnson, one of the two very worst ever Prime Minister's the UK has ever had to suffer, was deservedly getting a thorough rebuke and bashing from various opposition, he suddenly gets praise and support from; yes you guessed it!... the other worst [ now ex ] Prime Minister the UK has ever had to suffer!
The vindictive snake eyed May was quick to regurgitate more lies, hypocrisy, and deceit in support for Johnson's deal, although it's ever worse than the awful deal she wheeled into the parliamentary vote session on 3 occasions, and rightfully lost.

We shouldn't be surprised.

I thought she came out of it rather well.

She is and was a diabolical failure and millstone around the the neck of the UK both as Home Sec and PM,she comes out of nothing as as anything but a failure.
Last edited by reohn2 on 20 Oct 2019, 1:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Oct 2019, 1:27pm

661-Pete wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:While there is some merit in the idea that Beeching formed the roots of Brexit by isolating rural and outlying communities, it would be folly to attribute too much of the blame there.IMV.
East Grinstead in Sussex (which happened to be Beeching's home town, oddly enough) was cruelly afflicted by the Beeching Axe. Pre-Beeching, there were four railway lines leading into the town. Now there is just one (towards London - of course!).

Yet East Grinstead is part of the Mid Sussex constituency - which voted Remain in 2016.

Indeed.
Wales lost a great many lines and yet some parts voted Remain.

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 20 Oct 2019, 1:27pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Corbyn is now semi-detached and has been for some time. Principle has become dogma.

Quite!
And it won't win him any elections. :?
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 20 Oct 2019, 1:29pm

pete75 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
pete75 wrote:
I don't know about that but anyone who makes such a ridiculous and unsubstantiated statement as the one of yours I quoted above is on to a loser.

Pete
The horse is dead stop flogging it! :roll:


Certainly your ridiculous comment is .... :lol:

Pete,I love you,you're so warm and welcoming :D
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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 20 Oct 2019, 1:32pm

merseymouth wrote:Hello again, In my 70+ years I have seen so many changes on the ground, but also what words one is allowed to use without being called offensive! It is now at the stage where one can't say anything to move things forward.
With respect (which is code for, "I don't agree with you"), I think you're over-reacting.

Many words, especially those connected with the Western world's colonial past, have become more taboo in recent decades. You only need to read a book like Huckleberry Finn to know exactly what I mean!

But other words have become more socially acceptable as time moves on. Read a copy of the Grauniad (if you can stomach it) and notice how many F-words are sprinkled about its pages! Other papers have been slower to catch up, they still use asterisks...

An example. Back in the early 20th century, GBS wrote Pygmalion which contains the immortal words "not bloody likely!". This caused outrage at the time, but the phrase is so tame nowadays that they had to substitute something a bit stronger for My Fair Lady...

Which reminds me of another example. In the 1940s a youthful Richard Attenborough starred in a film called The Guinea Pig, set in a public school. That film caused a storm of protest because it contains a 4-letter word for one's posterior beginning with "a". (Sorry the filter won't let me type it). Once again, pretty mild by today's standards - even if this forum deems otherwise!

Yes language is changing, but take heart! You can still type more or less what you mean!
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Oct 2019, 1:46pm

pete75 wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:While there is some merit in the idea that Beeching formed the roots of Brexit by isolating rural and outlying communities, it would be folly to attribute too much of the blame there.IMV.

But it didn't. Most of the rural areas that had railways taken away by Beeching already had bus routes providing a much better passenger service than trains. In my own area the Bourne-Sleaford line close to passengers as early as 1930 because the buses had taken most of the passenger traffic. In rural areas the stations were often some way from settlements because the lines followed the best route rather than having to routed through a relativelby small settlement at extra expense. The buses picked people up near to were they lived.
Here is a pre Beeching 1" OS map of rural Lincs. Look how far apart the lines and stations are and how few settlements were actually served by a railway station.
If, and it's a big if, isolation of rural communities has happened and was a root of Brexit then the loss of rural bus services would have had a far greater effect than the loss of railways.


Broadly I sort of agreed with the (quite interesting) article. Did you read it?
I then merely added a couple of riders.

One other thing I would also add is the usefulness of railways for transporting heavy goods.
You have not taken that into account I think.