** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 20 Oct 2019, 5:46pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:

In my view the main roots of Brexit lie in the 2008 financial crash.


IMV the roots of Brexit lie in the settlement of 1688 and I'm not joking.

That gave us Dutch economists coming over with William of Orange and a complete turning upside down of the understanding of the source of wealth: trade or land. Britain seized the lead by establishing a mercantile empire and later the first industrial revolution based on the same principle.

Although you could argue that the national identity of England as distinct from Catholic Europe was laid down by Henry VIII, it was in the eighteenth century that the idea of Great Britain as a world player rather than as a European one became absolutely dominant.

Throw in the Union Jack, WW2, India and a couple of Spitfires and you ask a question: are you British or European? Ramp it all up with some east Europeans living down the road and, silly you, what did you expect for an answer?

In my classroom in my primary school in the early 1960s we had a map on the wall showing most of the world painted red. Brexit is an existential question not an economic one.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Oct 2019, 5:52pm

horizon wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:

In my view the main roots of Brexit lie in the 2008 financial crash.


IMV the roots of Brexit lie in the settlement of 1688 and I'm not joking.

That gave us Dutch economists coming over with William of Orange and a complete turning upside down of the understanding of the source of wealth: trade or land. Britain seized the lead by establishing a mercantile empire and later the first industrial revolution based on the same principle.

Although you could argue that the national identity of England as distinct from Catholic Europe was laid down by Henry VIII, it was in the eighteenth century that the idea of Great Britain as a world player rather than as a European one became absolutely dominant.

Throw in the Union Jack, WW2, India and a couple of Spitfires and you ask a question: are you British or European? Ramp it all up with some east Europeans living down the road and, silly you, what did you expect for an answer?

In my classroom in my primary school in the early 1960s we had a map on the wall showing most of the world painted red. Brexit is an existential question not an economic one.

I bow to your superior knowledge.
Though it begs the question why we joined in the first place!

Edit:
your quote from me is from my comment on Sweep's linked article that proposed the roots of Brexit lay in the Beeching Report!
I actually still think the 2008 crash is more relevant. Though clearly there are multiple factors.
Not so sure about Henry the Eighth though.
There were other staunch Protestants around on mainland Europe around that time.
And they were serious.
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 20 Oct 2019, 6:43pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 20 Oct 2019, 5:57pm

661-Pete wrote:
Mick F wrote:I never wanted to join in the first place.
We all know my sentiments on this!
Yes indeed we know, because you've repeated those exact words I don't know how many umpteens of times on this forum! Could you perhaps come up with something a bit different?
No.

Can you come up with an alternative to wanting to remain?
Somehow I doubt it.

I'm positive that I want us to leave.
You're positive that you want us to remain.

What other choice is there?
Half-way house?

It won't suit me.
Mick F. Cornwall

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Oct 2019, 6:00pm

Mick F wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
Mick F wrote:I never wanted to join in the first place.
We all know my sentiments on this!
Yes indeed we know, because you've repeated those exact words I don't know how many umpteens of times on this forum! Could you perhaps come up with something a bit different?
No.

Can you come up with an alternative to wanting to remain?
Somehow I doubt it.

I'm positive that I want us to leave.
You're positive that you want us to remain.

What other choice is there?
Half-way house?

It won't suit me.

Soft brexit

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 20 Oct 2019, 6:05pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Soft brexit

As in not joined them, but co-operated with them.

Too late now for a soft exit.
Should have been a soft entry 60odd years ago and stayed soft.
Mick F. Cornwall

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 20 Oct 2019, 6:17pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Soft brexit

That'll need defining. The ground has shifted so far and so fast that no one can agree on anything any more.

Before the referendum, Norway, EFTA and Customs Unions were thrown about by Brexiters as desirable outcomes. Now they are a betrayal of the Will of the People.

So, Soft Brexit - can we agree that it's a Norway type of option (if that's possible)? I think it would have the support of many, if only there was a sensible debate within the media. But while the language is of war, treason and betrayal, that debate won't happen, and opinions will be formed in an information vacuum.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Oct 2019, 6:32pm

Hell, I'm not going there - let's just say some sort of close alignment with Europe. It's the only option that stands any chance of uniting the country, I think.

Losers lost, but not too badly. Winners won, not as much as they liked, but we are out.

Allegedly...

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Spinners
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Spinners » 20 Oct 2019, 6:42pm

Mick F wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Soft brexit

As in not joined them, but co-operated with them.

Too late now for a soft exit.
Should have been a soft entry 60odd years ago and stayed soft.


I had a soft entry last night...

well, I had been drinking.
Cycling UK Life Member
PBP Ancien (2007)

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Oct 2019, 6:48pm

Spinners wrote:
I had a soft entry last night...

well, I had been drinking.

This thread may be helpful/relavant.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=133378

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Oct 2019, 6:51pm

Mick F wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Soft brexit

As in not joined them, but co-operated with them.

Too late now for a soft exit.
Should have been a soft entry 60odd years ago and stayed soft.


Ah you've come round and understood at last.
That is what we do/did around the Brussels table- cooperate!

To late yes.
Better stay in.
Better in than out as they say.



On a less lighthearted note.
Could you tell us what you think about Johnson's new deal?
It would be more of a complete argument.

I am not the most concise in putting my points but I do try to expand them just a little. :shock:

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 20 Oct 2019, 7:16pm

As long as we end up with something like the original Common Market with the ability to trade with whomsoever we want, make all our own laws and control our own borders I believe most Leave voters will be content. The overarching Superstate is an athema in which we are 1/28th of the whole to most ordinary thinking people.

And... Wales beat the French by one point, how apt!

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 20 Oct 2019, 7:20pm

Mick F wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
Mick F wrote:I never wanted to join in the first place.
We all know my sentiments on this!
Yes indeed we know, because you've repeated those exact words I don't know how many umpteens of times on this forum! Could you perhaps come up with something a bit different?
No.

Can you come up with an alternative to wanting to remain?
You did not understand my question, or maybe my grammar. I did not ask you to come up with an alternative to wanting to leave. Hence you cannot ask me that identical question, simply with "leave" replaced with "remain".

What I wanted is for you to come up with one - or preferably several - different reasons for wanting to leave. We've already heard the "I never wanted to join" one so please leave that to one side. Other reasons, please!

As for me - assuming that you'd phrased the question correctly - yes I can come up with many reasons for wanting to Remain. We were lied to - especially about the slogan on the bus. The Government has been paralysed, unable to pass any legislation other than Brex*it. There's still a risk of No-Deal, which will paralyse trade between us and the EU - especially at the Channel ports. There's a serious risk to health product availability. There's a serious risk to availability of fresh foods. Inflation may rocket (hitting pensioners hard!). The loss of migrant workers will seriously damage the fruit and vegetable-picking industry (Riverford, one of our suppliers, are particularly alarmed). Many campaigners on the Leave side (I'm not saying, all) were driven by xenophobia and racism.

And to cap it all, I'm certain that Remain is what the public now want, in a second referendum. The BBC can broadcast selective and curated vox pops suggesting otherwise, until they're blue in the face. I'm not fooled...

Want any more?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Oct 2019, 7:24pm

al_yrpal wrote:... most ordinary thinking people...


Hate to break it to you Al, but you speak only for yourself.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Oct 2019, 7:30pm

al_yrpal wrote:As long as we end up with something like the original Common Market with the ability to trade with whomsoever we want, make all our own laws and control our own borders I believe most Leave voters will be content. The overarching Superstate is an athema in which we are 1/28th of the whole to most ordinary thinking people.

And... Wales beat the French by one point, how apt!

Al

Apart from Wales beating France it doesn't stand up to even mild scrutiny.
Sounds just like Faragist propaganda.

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 20 Oct 2019, 7:41pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Though it begs the question why we joined in the first place!



Good point! I don't think we should have done. Britain wasn't ready. Very few people could see that the Empire was finished, Britain's role in the world was utterly different and she had lost her super-power status. Even if they could see it they would refuse to believe it. Change takes a long time even if some of the end events are sudden and dramatic. The UK still has enough economic strength to keep the dream alive: one aircaft carrier, the Falklands, gold medals in the Olympics, place on the Security Council, Rolls-Royce (owned by Germany, but still), a 93 year old Queen and, for a few years, Concorde. And lots of self-belief. But notice that I'm talking about the Empire: I'm not talking about the rise of multi-national companies, about maritime pollution, Ryanair, global warming, the internet. We haven't even adjusted to the idea that we are a small European state without an empire, never mind the new technological realities. We joined because a few far-seeing but unpopular politicians saw the future as it was (Ted Heath and others had fought in the war). We're leaving because a few self-serving politicians spotted the rich seam of nostalgia that could be mined for their personal benefit. Cue the Dambusters music.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!