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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 6:44am
by roubaixtuesday
al_yrpal wrote:So many remain people are so badly informed, twist truths or are delusional.. It doesn't actually matter though. We'll get there in the end .

Al


Well you're certainly right there Al.

On truth and delusion, where exactly fo you believe I live, and why?

And why does it matter?

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 7:46am
by Oldjohnw
The country is more or less evenly divided. Roughly half want to leave and half want to remain. The latter is possibly more than half. Parliament, which we elected, is more or less the same. The opposition do not have a duty to support the government whatever it does but rather to challenge what it does. And that seems to me to be just what it is doing.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 8:30am
by reohn2
al_yrpal wrote:So many remain people are so badly informed, twist truths or are delusional.. It doesn't actually matter though. We'll get there in the end .

Al

Enlighten us with your wisdom and knowledge,what exactly is it that remainers are so delusional about exactly.
Chapter and verse would be both instructive and educational.
As I've posted so many times on this thread convince me with facts and I may change my mind,keep on with the blather and vague untruths and there'll be no change on the remain side of this debacle.

BTW if your argument is so sound then why are Brexit supporters so afraid of a second referendum,BoJo's deal or remain seems a good choice on the ballot paper.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 8:33am
by Mick F
PDQ Mobile wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Soft brexit

As in not joined them, but co-operated with them.

Too late now for a soft exit.
Should have been a soft entry 60odd years ago and stayed soft.


Ah you've come round and understood at last.
That is what we do/did around the Brussels table- cooperate!

To late yes.
Better stay in.
Better in than out as they say.



On a less lighthearted note.
Could you tell us what you think about Johnson's new deal?
It would be more of a complete argument.

I am not the most concise in putting my points but I do try to expand them just a little. :shock:
Two answers from me this morning. I'll probably be off the air for the next day or three.

Co-operation is always a Good Thing. I've never said that we shouldn't co-operate with the UofE. My wish is that we talk talk, and not walk walk. We don't have to be Unionised to co-operate. Get out of the Union and talk, and talk whilst we're doing it. Jaw Jaw is better than War War .......... as WinstonC once said.

I've not listened to the news over the weekend, and not listened to TodayR4 although it's on in the background.
I have no idea what the ins and outs of Boris's deal are, or what Parliament thinks about it. I understand that the Speaker is going to say something today ......... but that's all.

The way I see it, all the talking should have been done and discussions and bargains struck well before invoking Art50.
They've buggered it up ...... if you pardon my bluntness. Blame the Tories - all of them.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 8:42am
by reohn2
Mick F wrote:]Two answers from me this morning. I'll probably be off the air for the next day or three.

Co-operation is always a Good Thing. I've never said that we shouldn't co-operate with the UofE. My wish is that we talk talk, and not walk walk. We don't have to be Unionised to co-operate. Get out of the Union and talk, and talk whilst we're doing it. Jaw Jaw is better than War War .......... as WinstonC once said.

I've not listened to the news over the weekend, and not listened to TodayR4 although it's on in the background.
I have no idea what the ins and outs of Boris's deal are, or what Parliament thinks about it. I understand that the Speaker is going to say something today ......... but that's all.

The way I see it, all the talking should have been done and discussions and bargains struck well before invoking Art50.
They've buggered it up ...... if you pardon my bluntness. Blame the Tories - all of them.

And yet you voted in a woman who is a member of the party who turned there backs(literally)to the EU parliament and refused dialogue with.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 8:49am
by roubaixtuesday
Mick F wrote:
Co-operation is always a Good Thing. I've never said that we shouldn't co-operate with the UofE. My wish is that we talk talk, and not walk walk. We don't have to be Unionised to co-operate. Get out of the Union and talk, and talk whilst we're doing it. Jaw Jaw is better than War War .......... as WinstonC once said.


The EU, at it's heart is a structure to allow talking and cooperation.

It's great triumph is that rather than fight wars we have endless tedious negotiations on obscure technicalities. This is a feature, not a bug!

Leaving the EU makes what you want much more difficult. Cooperation depends on the structures to enable it, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.

We will now be in a position where all 27 other member states meet on a regular basis and discuss and agree things together, at all levels from heads of state down to people agreeing the policy on the standard dimensions of widgets. We will be outside of all of that, which will make it far harder to cooperate, and much less likely that cooperation will result in an outcome we want. Because the outcome will already have been agreed by the other 27 before they even discuss it with us.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 8:54am
by Bonefishblues
Yep, that

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 9:02am
by reohn2
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Co-operation is always a Good Thing. I've never said that we shouldn't co-operate with the UofE. My wish is that we talk talk, and not walk walk. We don't have to be Unionised to co-operate. Get out of the Union and talk, and talk whilst we're doing it. Jaw Jaw is better than War War .......... as WinstonC once said.


The EU, at it's heart is a structure to allow talking and cooperation.

It's great triumph is that rather than fight wars we have endless tedious negotiations on obscure technicalities. This is a feature, not a bug!

Leaving the EU makes what you want much more difficult. Cooperation depends on the structures to enable it, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.

We will now be in a position where all 27 other member states meet on a regular basis and discuss and agree things together, at all levels from heads of state down to people agreeing the policy on the standard dimensions of widgets. We will be outside of all of that, which will make it far harder to cooperate, and much less likely that cooperation will result in an outcome we want. Because the outcome will already have been agreed by the other 27 before they even discuss it with us.

Spot on,plus we will still have to conform to EU standards if we wish to trade with it but have no say in what any future standards might be.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 9:11am
by pete75
Oldjohnw wrote:Perhaps Al will share with us his knowledge of those laws we don't make. Is it taxation, healthcare? Social security? Military size or spending? Education? Whether our infrastructure, phones, rail, power should be public or private?


He has shared his knowledge. He's said nothing about those laws.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 9:13am
by 661-Pete
Oldjohnw wrote:The opposition do not have a duty to support the government whatever it does but rather to challenge what it does. And that seems to me to be just what it is doing.
Precisely. Not what the rightwing press are howling, however. Instead they scream "HOW DARE THEY!" "FURY AT LABOUR PLOT!" ... and stuff like that.

So what are the Tories going to about this pestilent Parliament of theirs then? Recruit another Van Der Lubbe?

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 9:23am
by PDQ Mobile
Our right wing tabloid press is a absolute disgrace.
It is a disgrace and a stain on the fair priciples of good old UK.
The people that own it and work in it are a disgrace.
The people that so blatantly manipulate it are a digrace.
It is undermining a great deal that was fine and laudable about the UK.

We desperatly need a Press Complaints Committee with real and proper teeth.
A Committee composed of intelligent and fair minded people, not the weak bought and sold ones there at present.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 9:33am
by reohn2
PDQ Mobile wrote:Our right wing tabloid press is a absolute disgrace.
It is a disgrace and a stain on the fair priciples of good old UK.
The people that own it and work in it are a disgrace.
The people that so blatantly manipulate it are a digrace.
It is undermining a great deal that was fine and laudable about the UK.

So tell us something we don't know already :wink:

We desperatly need a Press Complaints Committee with real and proper teeth.
A Committee composed of intelligent and fair minded people, not the weak bought and sold ones there at present.

When the loonies are in charge of the asylum they're hardly likely to vote against the loonies.

PS,money doesn't just talk it screams abuse in the face of truth and justice.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 9:36am
by Oldjohnw
Reasons for the continuing rejection of Johnson's deal are that it does not formally protect either workers rights or the environment.

All the Govenment reassurances, no matter how loudly and frequently voiced, are worthless. This is simply because the Government is simultaneously saying that it will rip up the red tape. You cannot protect without specific regulation.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 9:41am
by pete75
PDQ Mobile wrote:
pete75 wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:While there is some merit in the idea that Beeching formed the roots of Brexit by isolating rural and outlying communities, it would be folly to attribute too much of the blame there.IMV.

But it didn't. Most of the rural areas that had railways taken away by Beeching already had bus routes providing a much better passenger service than trains. In my own area the Bourne-Sleaford line close to passengers as early as 1930 because the buses had taken most of the passenger traffic. In rural areas the stations were often some way from settlements because the lines followed the best route rather than having to routed through a relativelby small settlement at extra expense. The buses picked people up near to were they lived.
Here is a pre Beeching 1" OS map of rural Lincs. Look how far apart the lines and stations are and how few settlements were actually served by a railway station.
If, and it's a big if, isolation of rural communities has happened and was a root of Brexit then the loss of rural bus services would have had a far greater effect than the loss of railways.


Broadly I sort of agreed with the (quite interesting) article. Did you read it?
I then merely added a couple of riders.

One other thing I would also add is the usefulness of railways for transporting heavy goods.
You have not taken that into account I think.


I have read it and the writer doesn't seem to realise that rail was competing with and then replaced by bus services in those places. It's the cutbacks in those bus services that has caused isolation in rural areas. Maybe he he knows this and doesn't mention it because it would negate his point.

Most nineteenth century railways were built with the primary purpose of carrying freight with one of the major advantages being a reduction in the price of coal. It was the reduction in freight traffic which led to many rural lines becoming uneconomic.
Railways were a great help to areas like Lincolnshire in the 19th century and the first half or so of the twentieth. Coal came in from the Notts, Derby and South Yorks coal field for export through Boston, Grimsby and Immingham. Agricultural products and fish went the other way. Without the railways much of this trade would have been almost impossible.
WIth the growth of lorry transport the railways were no longer needed , they had similar travel times to rail transport but could be loaded on the farm and taken straight to the destination without the bother and expense of transhipping goods from road to rail and then rail to road.
They didn't need the railways for the coal because with cuts in mining Britain stopped exporting it.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 9:42am
by mjr
roubaixtuesday wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:So many remain people are so badly informed, twist truths or are delusional.. It doesn't actually matter though. We'll get there in the end .

Al


Well you're certainly right there Al.

On truth and delusion, where exactly fo you believe I live, and why?

And why does it matter?

Because traitors who have left UK borders for too long have no right to vote and must accept whatever patriotic Brexiters do to them, even if it's based on lies like £350m/week for the NHS, Turkey joining the EU, open borders with Syria and Iraq, or that the EU restricts trade more than freeing it. There are currently 53 Free Trade Agreements, some covering multiple countries. There are some restrictions, such as not selling arms to North Korea or Iran, but the UK would probably do that anyway (else face sanctions from the US) and why does Al object to that?