** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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mikeonabike
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mikeonabike » 11 Dec 2019, 6:24pm

reohn2 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
Mick F wrote:I think you are correct. We've done the Political Compass test a few times on here, and just about all of the contributors were left/liberals, including me.

I still want us out of the EU, but more than that, I want rid of the all the Tories. If that means we remain, so be it.


Now there is some sensible, pragmatic thinking.

+1

I agree.

+another
Sensible pragmatic thinking - good British values unlike the so-called conservative party

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 11 Dec 2019, 6:28pm

robing wrote:So this election is supposedly all about Brexit. Just remember 4 years ago nobody was bothered about it or had even heard of it .
Nobody?
I, and many many many people have been going on about leaving the EU for decades. We shouldn't have joined in the first place .......... but I'm repeating myself. :wink:

The word "Brexit" came from Grexit when Greece was almost getting out of the Euro zone due to financial issues.
The Greek Drachma was the oldest currency still in use on Earth. The Greek people never even had a vote on the conversion to the Euro, so there was a big push to get out of it.
Pity they didn't.
Mick F. Cornwall

francovendee
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby francovendee » 11 Dec 2019, 6:36pm

Mick F wrote:I think you are correct. We've done the Political Compass test a few times on here, and just about all of the contributors were left/liberals, including me.

I still want us out of the EU, but more than that, I want rid of the all the Tories. If that means we remain, so be it.

I think you reflect the views of a lot of people who voted leave, the idea of another 5 years of the Tories is too high a price to pay.
I still think he'll get a small majority unfortunately,☹️

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 11 Dec 2019, 7:24pm

Yes, but so long as it's small.
I'd rather it be very small if there's going to be any sort of Tory majority at all.

Trouble is, we have constituencies.
We can only vote for our candidates. It isn't a referendum despite what the party system would like us to have.

Maybe you have a wonderful excellent candidate who represents the local people brilliantly. They take their job seriously and really look after their people. Maybe this person is not of the party who you want in power in Downing Street.

Do you vote for a complete idiot who is in the party who you do want in Downing Street?
What happens if you can't stand the idea of the Tories in power, but your Tory candidate is wonderfully excellently brilliant?

Vote for the idiot .............. or vote for the wonderful excellent candidate?
Mick F. Cornwall

francovendee
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby francovendee » 11 Dec 2019, 8:58pm

Certainly a dilemma and sometimes you go with the candidate and not the party.
An alternative to the party system would be a way forward,loose coalition of independents maybe?

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 13 Dec 2019, 2:23pm

So the effect of this election being lost 48-52 by Leave parties is a landslide for five years of getting Brexit dung because of how the UK system punishes divisions and rewards alliances. No longer can Leavers claim any credible democratic justification. They just kept repeating the vote until it gave them the answer they wanted!
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 13 Dec 2019, 2:32pm

mjr wrote:So the effect of this election being lost 48-52 by Leave parties is a landslide for five years of getting Brexit dung because of how the UK system punishes divisions and rewards alliances. No longer can Leavers claim any credible democratic justification. They just kept repeating the vote until it gave them the answer they wanted!


:lol:
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RickH
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby RickH » 13 Dec 2019, 4:08pm

It seems that the predominant view of the BBC on here is that is has been heavily biased towards Brexit.

I happened to have Radio 4 on in the car briefly this morning a little before 9 & was surprised, as well as slightly shocked, by a Conservative (Lord I think. I'll have to see if I can find it) and his vitriolic condemnation of the BBC's anti-Brexit bias plus alluding to plans/aspirations/spite to remove their funding because of that! I've no idea if that is anywhere near official policy or one person "going off on one", but it does give cause for concern over freedom of the media.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 13 Dec 2019, 4:16pm

RickH wrote:It seems that the predominant view of the BBC on here is that is has been heavily biased towards Brexit.

I happened to have Radio 4 on in the car briefly this morning a little before 9 & was surprised, as well as slightly shocked, by a Conservative (Lord I think. I'll have to see if I can find it) and his vitriolic condemnation of the BBC's anti-Brexit bias plus alluding to plans/aspirations/spite to remove their funding because of that! I've no idea if that is anywhere near official policy or one person "going off on one", but it does give cause for concern over freedom of the media.

Well, yes. If they stop accusing the BBC of anti-Brexit bias then there's a danger it might regain its balance!
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Pastychomper
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Pastychomper » 13 Dec 2019, 4:47pm

Both sides have accused the BBC of being biased against them, for some time now. I don't watch much BBC news these days but I could hazard a guess at how that came about.

Let some random racist idiot spout for ten minutes about how Brexit will keep the riff-raff out, and Remainers are likely to see it as air-time given to the 'other side' while Leavers see it as an attempt to paint them all as racist idiots.

This thread has been largely dominated by remainers, so it's no surprise the predominant view is that the BBC is pro-leave.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 13 Dec 2019, 5:04pm

Pastychomper wrote:This thread has been largely dominated by remainers, so it's no surprise the predominant view is that the BBC is pro-leave.

That's possibly true, but (for example) sometimes you wonder why for example so much time is given to antisemitism in the Labour party and so little to Islamophobia in the Tory party.

Social media threads were full of Corbyn being antisemitic without any attempt to analyse it, nobody on the other hand seemed bothered about racism in the Tory party.
Now obviously some of that is simple bias, people will believe it because it suits them to do so because its aligned with what they think but it raised its head so often on the beeb that I felt myself questioning how impartial they were - and I'm someone who has defended beeb impartiality in the past.

I've worked at the beeb and I know that they take impartiality quite seriously but that doesn't mean they're not blinded by stuff.
But I just can't shake the belief that there's something not right there.

And, I STILL have never found out what this so called antisemitism was about. Social media posts often seems to confuse it with criticism of Israel but obviously that's not it. So what are the actual facts?
This also applies to the Islamophobia in the Tory party, you see it touted but actual facts seem pretty scarce.

So what is it? Who is doing it? When? Where?

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 13 Dec 2019, 5:09pm

Pastychomper wrote:Both sides have accused the BBC of being biased against them, for some time now. I don't watch much BBC news these days but I could hazard a guess at how that came about.

Let some random racist idiot spout for ten minutes about how Brexit will keep the riff-raff out, and Remainers are likely to see it as air-time given to the 'other side' while Leavers see it as an attempt to paint them all as racist idiots.

This thread has been largely dominated by remainers, so it's no surprise the predominant view is that the BBC is pro-leave.

The unquestioning amplifying of anonymous Downing St sources, setting the talking points for the whole day. It happened throughout the campaign (and indeed for months) on all sorts of stories. The decision that Labour's anti-semitism was worth headlines throughout the day, while Tory xenophobia is ignored. The political correspondents' policy of never challenging demonstrable lies - obviously a benefit to a party that has nothing but lies. A bias towards Brexity BBCQT panelists and audience members. Laura Kuenssberg's gushing and embarrassing profile of Johnson. The repeated interviewing of people known to be hostile to Corbyn (John Mann, Ian Austin and co).

It's not that any of those single items should have been excluded, or not even that all of the anti-Labour coverage was untrue. But it is in the selection of stories and their prominence that the propaganda is done.

If anyone has any credible evidence to show the BBC has been anti-Brexit or pro-Labour, I'd like to see it. I mean - Marr, Robinson, Kuenssberg, Neill?

mikeonabike
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mikeonabike » 13 Dec 2019, 6:20pm

For the last 3.5 years the Tories have successfully avoided discussing what sort of Brexit we will end up with. So in the end we will leave and still have no clue as to what the final deal will look like (not the "certainty on Brexit" that my new MP promised). Attempts by the opposition to tie the Tories down have been like trying to grab a bar of soap, and have been falsely branded as attempts to block Brexit.

And the above has happened without serious challenge by the establishment media. It's all been excellent politicking by the Tories, if you just see it as a big game.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 13 Dec 2019, 7:28pm

kwackers wrote:
And, I STILL have never found out what this so called antisemitism was about. Social media posts often seems to confuse it with criticism of Israel but obviously that's not it. So what are the actual facts?

So what is it? Who is doing it? When? Where?


There's quite a bit here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemit ... aff_claims

but the article actually largely exonerates the Labour party (AFAICS).
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 100%JR » 13 Dec 2019, 8:22pm

kwackers wrote:That's possibly true, but (for example) sometimes you wonder why for example so much time is given to antisemitism in the Labour party and so little to Islamophobia in the Tory party.

Social media threads were full of Corbyn being antisemitic without any attempt to analyse it, nobody on the other hand
This also applies to the Islamophobia in the Tory party, you see it touted but actual facts seem pretty scarce.

So what is it? Who is doing it? When? Where?

We were talking about this in the pub a couple of nights ago and whilst it may or may not the case here's our thoughts.
What is Anti-Semitism?
It's the hatred of or fear of Jews.
What is Islamophobia?
It is the hatred or fear of the Muslim religion
But what are they beyond that...racism,nothing more nothing less.
BUT:-
Anti-Semitism conjures up thoughts of WW2,Hitler,The Nazis and the Holocaust.Jews good-Nazis bad.
Islamophobia conjures up thoughts of Terrorism,Hijabs,Burkas and it seems it's "more" acceptable to your average Gammon.
To put it another way Jews are nice white people and Muslims are horrible brown savages.
The fact that the press peddled the anti-Semitism so much(without any real evidence)just shows how easy it is to fool large numbers of the public en-mass.
Now add Anti-Semitism and "Terrorist Sympathiser" together and the great unwashed soon jump on board.Corbyn et-al become the 4th Reich.
Print it or say it enough and vast swathes of Joe Public believe it
So.
Bojo:-"They're just Piccannanies with watermelon smiles"
Gammon:-"Corbyn is Anti-Semitic"
Bojo:-"Muslim women look like letterboxes or Bank Robbers"
Gammon:-"Corbyn is Anti-Semitic"!!!!!!
Bojo:-"Gays are tank-topped Bum-boys"
Gammon"Corbyn is anti-Semitic AND a Terrorist sympathiser"!!!!!!
Very sad state of affairs but with the amount of anti-Islam crap on Social media/Youtube etc it's easy to see how some Sheeple simply see Islamaphobia as justifiable but Anti-Semitism as bad :roll:
I work with people who didn't vote for "Anti-Semite" Corbyn but still refer to others as Ch***s,P***s,Nig-n**s and any other derogatory term from the 70s you can think of to describe people from other ethnic backgrounds :oops: