** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 6 Jun 2018, 5:36pm

BrianFox wrote: ........It would be hard to make up the total omnishambles we're engaged in.

Spot on!
It'll all hit the fan PDQ I suspect,by which time it'll be too late and the brexit voters will then realise the huge mistake of their ways.
But by then we'll all be up **** creek without a paddle.
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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 6 Jun 2018, 5:52pm

reohn2 wrote:....
It'll all hit the fan PDQ I suspect,by which time it'll be too late and the brexit voters will then realise the huge mistake of their ways.
.....

I think the Brexit voters have already started to realise the huge mistake given the results of recent polls. But it's being skewed by our politicians continuing to waste airtime and column inches in expounding their "ideology at any cost".

Ian

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 6 Jun 2018, 6:08pm

Psamathe wrote:
reohn2 wrote:....
It'll all hit the fan PDQ I suspect,by which time it'll be too late and the brexit voters will then realise the huge mistake of their ways.
.....

I think the Brexit voters have already started to realise the huge mistake given the results of recent polls. But it's being skewed by our politicians continuing to waste airtime and column inches in expounding their "ideology at any cost".

Ian

Yer not wrong there Ian.

AFAIC it could be stopped even at this late stage if the majority of MP's come to their senses.
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brynpoeth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby brynpoeth » 6 Jun 2018, 7:49pm

pwa wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Psamathe wrote:And in the news today May is telling most Conservative MPs that they must vote for Heathrow expansion (exceptions like "The Boris Problem"). So how democratic is it when your elected representative is told to ignore constituents and do as instructed by May? Illustrates to me how even though we elect our MPs (through a very flawed electoral system), the whipping system turns it into an even less democratic governance.

It is especially annoying that many of the criticisms about the EU's democratic deficit are made by people who actively benefit from the UK's democratic deficit. Not only politicians, but press barons and editors. I'd respect their opinions about the EU a bit more if they applied the same standards to the UK.

(No slur on the case made by pwa or others here, who have their own criticisms of the way the UK operates)


That last comment received with thanks. Signing off on this for today because I don't want to go to bed with Brexit on my mind. But congrats everyone on very civilised discussion.

I don't get so worked up about b****t :wink:
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stu1102
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby stu1102 » 7 Jun 2018, 10:35am

Nadine Dorries Conservative MP indicated on twitter this morning


'David Davis is ex SAS He’s trained to survive. He’s also trained to take people out. #Brexit'


Very comforting to know for all young people adversely effected by Brexit

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 7 Jun 2018, 10:47am

stu1102 wrote:Nadine Dorries Conservative MP indicated on twitter this morning
‏.....

David Davis is (again) behaving like a spoilt child throwing yet another tantrum because he can't have what he wants. His (indirect) "threats to resign" seem to now be a repeating pattern when discussion does not get him what he wants. He can't present a strong case, others don't accept it so he resorts to get his way through threats to resign. Doesn't seem that long ago since his last (indirect) threat to resign.

Probably help thing a lot if he were to go (though might jeopardise May's position).

Ian

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 7 Jun 2018, 10:47am

Meanwhile, the delivery of not a "hard" or "soft" Brexit, but an Alice in Wonderland Brexit, continues.

Today's lunacy:

The UK government wants freedom to negotiate trade deals.

These deals will be worse than what we have in the EU as the EU has more clout than the UK.

The government cannot agree what we will propose to the EU in order to get worse trade terms with the rest of the world, and ministers may resign as a result.

The EU has already rejected both options under consideration anyway, so what the government proposes is largely irrelevant, as the EU holds all the cards in the negotiation.

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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 7 Jun 2018, 10:51am

BrianFox wrote:.....
The UK government wants freedom to negotiate trade deals.

These deals will be worse than what we have in the EU as the EU has more clout than the UK.
....

And some of those countries prepared to negotiate a trade deal with the UK will require a significant relaxation on UK immigration (for their citizens) as part of any trade deal
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-britain-india-immigrants-accept-more-free-trade-deal-diplomat-warning-yk-sinha-a8073516.html wrote:Brexit: Britain should accept more immigrants if it wants a free trade deal, senior Indian diplomat warns

Britain needs to accept higher levels of immigration from India if it hopes to sign a free trade deal after Brexit, a senior Indian diplomat has warned.

YK Sinha, India’s High Commissioner to the UK, warned that after Brexit it may take up to a decade for the two countries to negotiate a free trade deal and the “freer movement of people and professionals” would be a crucial component of it.


Except apparently we voted for less immigration (that choice didn't appear on my ballot paper but I assume it must have on everybody else's as we keep getting told that's what we voted for)

Ian

Flinders
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Flinders » 7 Jun 2018, 12:41pm

Before the vote I said that if we left, we would still get about the same amount of immigration, basically because we need it, but it would be more from non-EU countries. I rest my case.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 7 Jun 2018, 4:40pm

Flinders wrote:Before the vote I said that if we left, we would still get about the same amount of immigration, basically because we need it, but it would be more from non-EU countries. I rest my case.

Since the referendum, Davis, Johnson, Hannan and other Brexit promoters have all said that immigration levels would be unlikely to fall. I really don't know how it fits with May's assertion that the referendum was about immigration.

I know there are things governments can do to restrict foreign workers from settling here, but as a German writer said of Turkish guest workers: "We wanted workers but we got people". A large population of itinerant short term labourers seems like a recipe for social unrest, and rather flies in the face of the perennial Home Secretary claim that immigrants aren't willing to fit in. If they have no status, why would they even try?

stu1102
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby stu1102 » 8 Jun 2018, 8:11am

73% of all British voters and even 70% of Leave voters now think Brexit is going badly.

https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/result ... 9/politics

but don't worry Mr Davis and his team are leading from the front as soon as they can find their notes

The EU team have got theirs


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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 8 Jun 2018, 12:10pm

So our Foreign Secretary Johnson says "the UK lacks guts" in the Brexit process.

Yet he is a member of the Cabinet, a handful of people privy to all the facts and charged with the negotiations and decisions that have to be taken.
So to whom are his remarks addressed. David Davies the Brexit Secretary perhaps, or Gove?
Or to himself perhaps?

Or are those remarks addressed to me, and the all the other UK citizens?

If so he is wrong. I do not lack guts in the Brexit business.
I think it is a huge mistake and I will continue to argue that forcefully as a point of view.

Indeed, if I might make so bold,I think my basic understanding of it all is better than Mr Johnson's, his references to it (in Latin!) are always couched in sound bite type utterances with little solidity, exactness, or coherent meaning.

He is a first class example of a product of an old colonial education system that is no longer relevant. IMV.

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 8 Jun 2018, 12:36pm

With regard to Davis and his "I'll resign ..." tantrum based "negotiation"
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/david-davis-brexit-resign-customs-backstop-theresa-may-toddler-tantrum-politics-a8388466.html wrote:David Davis has now not-resigned five times over Brexit – how long can this toddler tantrum politics go on?

If you’d made the same false promises to the country as the Brexit secretary has, and had been hopelessly found out, would you not just threaten to resign but actually do it?
...
If we take a gentle jog through Davis’s four other Brexit non-resignations, an unfortunate truth reveals itself, which is that every last thing he has threatened to resign over has happened anyway, and he has nonetheless remained in post.

They include not resigning over Boris Johnson and Michael Gove getting more attention than him on Brexit, not resigning over Damian Green not watching porn on his office computer, not resigning over Britain not leaving the EU’s common fisheries policy, not resigning over not being listened to about not pursuing a “customs partnership” with the EU.
...
By now, according to Davis’s own pronouncements on the matter, mainly from 2016, Britain should have already struck separate free trade deals with Germany, France and Poland.

It should also have successfully negotiated free trade deals with the USA, China, India, the UAE and Indonesia, which would together combine to make a free trade area “ten times larger” than the EU – which, in GDP terms, would be significantly larger than Planet Earth.


I was going to add my own comment but the article/excerpts above really speak for themselves in commenting on the guy.

Ian

Flinders
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Flinders » 9 Jun 2018, 9:04am

bovlomov wrote:
Flinders wrote:Before the vote I said that if we left, we would still get about the same amount of immigration, basically because we need it, but it would be more from non-EU countries. I rest my case.

Since the referendum, Davis, Johnson, Hannan and other Brexit promoters have all said that immigration levels would be unlikely to fall. I really don't know how it fits with May's assertion that the referendum was about immigration.

I know there are things governments can do to restrict foreign workers from settling here, but as a German writer said of Turkish guest workers: "We wanted workers but we got people". A large population of itinerant short term labourers seems like a recipe for social unrest, and rather flies in the face of the perennial Home Secretary claim that immigrants aren't willing to fit in. If they have no status, why would they even try?


I think she is right in that the referendum was made by the leave side to be about immigration, even though anyone with any knowledge about immigration knew, and said, that leaving would not reduce the need for it. Immigration is the big dog-whistle in politics right now across the world- that's the biggest lever trump used to get power, for example. But all politicians know you can't reduce it, certainly here- as you say, once the leave leaders had got their vote, they then admitted they lied about reducing immigration- we'll have the same amount, but from Asia instead of from Europe. I doubt a lot of leave voters would have voted leave had they grasped the truth about that.

stu1102
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby stu1102 » 9 Jun 2018, 12:05pm

I came across this from the Times

Sam Coates@ Times


'Just over a week ago, the HMRC bosses told MPs there were 39 projects out in hold or cancelled because of Brexit but wouldn’t say which

Today we reveal the government’s full list

Billions lost in tax as Brexit puts dozens of critical projects on ice'

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7bbb1 ... 2cb45ebb16


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