** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 2:19pm

I'll put my neck on the line and lay the blame on instigating a referendum with the sole purpose of avoiding conflict within the Tory party, regardless of the consequence to the country.

It would be nice to blame the Tory party and David Cameron but he would have just being doing a King Canute by not allowing the referendum.
UKIP were "out of the bottle" and the people could no longer be ignored on this issue, both leavers and those of us remainers who mistakenly believed we were the majority and it was worth a referendum to bring an end to this incessant EU obsessing.
Yma o Hyd

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2461
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Jul 2018, 2:25pm

It's interesting that you regard statements from the official remain campaign as binding but not those from the official leave campaign.

Given that leave won, that's remarkable.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2461
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Jul 2018, 2:28pm

to bring an end to this incessant EU obsessing.


You've got to admit, that's pretty funny.

It didn't seem to occur to anyone on the leave side that leaving would involve a highly complex negotiation which would span years if not decades of obsessing over every detail of our relationship with the EU?

Hilarious.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3280
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 11 Jul 2018, 2:30pm

Actually I object to being called graceless.
I have a passionate belief in Europe and I decided to argue the case for it in my simple way.
That remains my democratic right. And that is healthy for society too in my view.
By and large the debate on here has been polite and graceful.
Passionionate yes but within bounds.

We have now lost Farage Johnson Davies.
Little concrete agrument for leaving has been put forward IMV. Just the old "take back control" mantra.
As Brian Fox pointed out,leaving may well perversly have the opposite effect in many areas.

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 2:31pm

It's interesting that you regard statements from the official remain campaign as binding but not those from the official leave campaign.

Given that leave won, that's remarkable.



Hardly remarkable.
He was the Prime Minister and he did call the referendum.
Possibly I shouldnt refer to him as head of remain though, as he made these statements in an official government release prior to the starting gun being fired.

So I will say this is the option that our Prime Minister presented the country with and is from a position far greater than any member or leader of any referendum campaigning group, even though he later moved into that role.
Yma o Hyd

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 2:41pm

BrianFox wrote:
to bring an end to this incessant EU obsessing.


You've got to admit, that's pretty funny.

It didn't seem to occur to anyone on the leave side that leaving would involve a highly complex negotiation which would span years if not decades of obsessing over every detail of our relationship with the EU?

Hilarious.


It is pretty funny but the joke is on the likes of me who thought that we would win the referendum and shut the leavers up. While I can see the funny side and laugh at my mistake, the leavers had the real laugh, laughing at our mistake.

I am sure some Leave voters did consider the very point that you made and lots more thought we just hand in our membership card and leave. I am sure that they put all the blame for the procrastination at the foot of the remain die-hards, I cant see good grounds to argue against them.
Yma o Hyd

thirdcrank
Posts: 28685
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Jul 2018, 2:52pm

Meantime, the EU negotiators are proving what a lot of jolly rotten types they are by not acceding to our every requirement - even though we don't seem to have been able to set out what we require.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 47496
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 11 Jul 2018, 3:20pm

brynpoeth wrote:Nobody thought The People would vote to leave
Nobody?

I would have been amazed - nay, astounded - if the vote was for Remain.
I considered it a foregone conclusion, and I'm not the only one.
Mick F. Cornwall

mr bajokoses
Posts: 513
Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 5:19pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 11 Jul 2018, 3:22pm

The blame rests firmly with the leave campaigners who lied about how simple leaving would be, and the benefits of doing so.

They should be the target of leave voters' anger.

Leavers own this sorry mess 100 per cent. It has absolutely nothing to do with remain voters.

brynpoeth
Posts: 11828
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Jul 2018, 3:23pm

Mick F wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Nobody thought The People would vote to leave
Nobody?

I would have been amazed - nay, astounded - if the vote was for Remain.
I considered it a foregone conclusion, and I'm not the only one.

I never dreamed the vote would be to leave, otherwise the whole thing would have been forgotten by now

There was really no need for a referendum at all
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life "597"

stu1102
Posts: 108
Joined: 24 Jun 2013, 8:38pm
Location: Beeston, Nottignham

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby stu1102 » 11 Jul 2018, 4:50pm

Just some random thoughts..

When I journey back to my fathers village in Scotland there is rising seething almost disdain for the leaders of the leave campaign so much so that I would guestimate Scotland will be out of the Union within the next 6 years if the feeling is my fathers village is a measure

I think the referundum has let the genie out of the bottle for all intents and purposes and for me and my family this does not feel like a country that I would wish to live in for the rest of my life, I never believed in Scotland seperating out of the Union but now I firmly do

I dont believe a significant % of the people that voted leave did so becuase they were anti-Eu per se I think it was something more fundamental about England itself

brynpoeth
Posts: 11828
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Jul 2018, 4:54pm

stu1102 wrote:Just some random thoughts..

When I journey back to my fathers village in Scotland there is rising seething almost disdain for the leaders of the leave campaign so much so that I would guestimate Scotland will be out of the Union within the next 6 years if the feeling is my fathers village is a measure

I think the referundum has let the genie out of the bottle for all intents and purposes and for me and my family this does not feel like a country that I would wish to live in for the rest of my life, I never believed in Scotland seperating out of the Union but now I firmly do

I dont believe a significant % of the people that voted leave did so becuase they were anti-Eu per se I think it was something more fundamental about England itself

What about urban Scotland?
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life "597"

pwa
Posts: 10966
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 11 Jul 2018, 5:10pm

stu1102 wrote:Just some random thoughts..

When I journey back to my fathers village in Scotland there is rising seething almost disdain for the leaders of the leave campaign so much so that I would guestimate Scotland will be out of the Union within the next 6 years if the feeling is my fathers village is a measure

I think the referundum has let the genie out of the bottle for all intents and purposes and for me and my family this does not feel like a country that I would wish to live in for the rest of my life, I never believed in Scotland seperating out of the Union but now I firmly do

I dont believe a significant % of the people that voted leave did so becuase they were anti-Eu per se I think it was something more fundamental about England itself


And Wales I suppose.
I get the same sick feeling at the thought of being kept in the EU. So where do we go from here? Calling each other names (not you) isn't going to help the rift to heal, and the never ending sulk that some folk wallow in is just self-indulgence. We need leaders with answers that go some way to meeting some of the wants and aspirations of both sides. Corbyn and May both hint at that, hampered by people with extreme views within their parties.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 47496
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 11 Jul 2018, 5:40pm

brynpoeth wrote:
Mick F wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Nobody thought The People would vote to leave
Nobody?

I would have been amazed - nay, astounded - if the vote was for Remain.
I considered it a foregone conclusion, and I'm not the only one.

I never dreamed the vote would be to leave, otherwise the whole thing would have been forgotten by now

There was really no need for a referendum at all
Oh yes there was! :shock:
Leave leave leave leave.
We shouldn't have joined in the first place and a referendum asked the population, and the majority of the population wanted to leave.

Sorry if that upsets the people who wanted to remain, but I'd have just shrugged my shoulders if the vote had gone the other way.
Why can't the people who were on the losing side just shrug their shoulders and accept it?
Why are the people who wanted to remain going on and on about it?
Mick F. Cornwall

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3280
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 11 Jul 2018, 5:58pm

Broadly speaking too much to lose without fighting for it.
And a basket of lies and half truths told by "Leave".

((And Mick, I would be interested in your view on the departures of Farage, Johnson and Davies?))