** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 13 Sep 2016, 9:19pm

Orgreave could have a review or commission. Rudd is reading up on it with a mind to commission an investigation. I hope they investigate both sides over that event.

Hillsborough events reached a good degree of truth eventually. Even though it took too long there were people fighting for truth and they were able to fight for it without oppression such as political detentions.

Bloody Sunday, internment, etc. I think there's many cases and situations that should not have happened but did. They end up with a degree of truth that you'd never get with authoritarian, fascist governments/systems.

Sleep walking into fascism? You could sleep walk into communism, fascism, socialism, capitalism etc. In fact any -ism you can think of could end up happening. The chances of it happening is highly unlikely, apart from the capitalism of course. The old saying truly applies, "all it takes for evil to prosper is for a few good men to stand by" I think it goes.

Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 13 Sep 2016, 9:19pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Boundary changes...
BTW have you heard Corbyn complain about it? I've not which I actually think gives him more credibility in my eyes because his silence could be seen as acceptance that current boundaries are giving a skewed level of democracy towards Labour.

I have
“We’re looking at the whole issue of the boundary changes and what I see as a democratic deficit in them because the figures the Boundary Commission are working on are of December last year,” said Mr Corbyn.

“Since then well over two million more people have joined the electoral register. We need a fair electoral system that guarantees equal representation of all constituencies; by using out of date figures they can’t do that.”


Ian

Psamathe
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 13 Sep 2016, 9:23pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Boundary changes...
Add in the cost savings crib reducing 650 seats to 600 seats I think it's a good change....

What I find annoying was on this evening's C4 news where some politician was going on about how there were other ways they could save the money ! If there are any ways to save money they should be done as well. Not a question of politicians accepting wasting money on something because they are making savings elsewhere - if they are wasting money it should be stopped (irrespective of other possible savings).

Ian

mikeonabike
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Joined: 20 Jun 2016, 8:22am

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby mikeonabike » 14 Sep 2016, 8:23am

meic wrote:
While we are able to reflect on our own failings we are not in danger of falling for the "charms" of fascism.

It took us three times as long to realise our own failings there compared to how long it took Germany to sprout, grow and execute its Fascists. So I think that we will find ample time for a pseudo-fascist to charm us before our conscience eventually kicks in and brings us to our senses.

Exactly. At the time Thatcher's authoritarianism was popular (enough to win the next election), and clearly she could rely on the state security services choosing to obey orders even though they knew what they were doing was illegal. So I don't believe that fascism is incompatible with Britishness.
Obviously it would need a particular stimulus like the severe economic downturns that brought Hitler and Mussolini to power. Also an atmosphere of them against us. Now what might prompt that in Britain?

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pwa » 14 Sep 2016, 8:33am

mikeonabike wrote:
meic wrote:
While we are able to reflect on our own failings we are not in danger of falling for the "charms" of fascism.

It took us three times as long to realise our own failings there compared to how long it took Germany to sprout, grow and execute its Fascists. So I think that we will find ample time for a pseudo-fascist to charm us before our conscience eventually kicks in and brings us to our senses.

Exactly. At the time Thatcher's authoritarianism was popular (enough to win the next election), and clearly she could rely on the state security services choosing to obey orders even though they knew what they were doing was illegal. So I don't believe that fascism is incompatible with Britishness.
Obviously it would need a particular stimulus like the severe economic downturns that brought Hitler and Mussolini to power. Also an atmosphere of them against us. Now what might prompt that in Britain?


If I read your post correctly you don't believe that even Thatcher was a Fascist. She did things I did not like, but she did not lock up the Opposition, she did not suspend all future elections, and she did not stop Spitting Image making fun of her. She may have been "authoritarian" by the standards of UK Prime Ministers, but not by World standards. At times it was not clear that she even had full control over her own party.

mikeonabike
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Joined: 20 Jun 2016, 8:22am

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby mikeonabike » 14 Sep 2016, 9:11am

No Thatcher wasn't fascist. But is fascism impossible in the UK? I don't think it is. It isn't likely, but it is more likely here than in Germany say.

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DaveP
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Location: W Mids

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby DaveP » 14 Sep 2016, 9:24am

Psamathe wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Boundary changes...
Add in the cost savings crib reducing 650 seats to 600 seats I think it's a good change....

What I find annoying was on this evening's C4 news where some politician was going on about how there were other ways they could save the money ! If there are any ways to save money they should be done as well. Not a question of politicians accepting wasting money on something because they are making savings elsewhere - if they are wasting money it should be stopped (irrespective of other possible savings).

Ian

Cost savings? Does anyone believe this will result in any?
By the time you have deducted the administrative costs of carrying out a change, extra staff for MPs to cope with the increased volume of correspondence per MP, extra expenses to cover the increased travel burden of actually touring the new larger constituencies and a bit of a pay rise for the lads to reimburse them for the added stress there wont be much left in the way of savings!
Whenever a government gets to redrawing constituency boundaries they're thinking about the next election.
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully...

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pwa » 14 Sep 2016, 9:28am

mikeonabike wrote:No Thatcher wasn't fascist. But is fascism impossible in the UK? I don't think it is. It isn't likely, but it is more likely here than in Germany say.


I'm not saying you are wrong, but for Fascism to take hold it needs some degree of compliance from the people. And the people I know, my family, friends, work colleagues and neighbours, all seem to me to be wedded to democracy. Democracy is a national defining trait. Not perfect democracy, i know, but that is not the point. We pride ourselves on having constant democracy, decade after decade. It is part of our identity. And with it goes a largely free press and freedom to say bad things about the government of the day. None of that is consistent with Fascism. So I'd say it is not possible in the next few decades.

I don't know Germany well enough to say anything other than I would be surprised if Fascism became a force in that nation again. It seems highly improbable.

pwa
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pwa » 14 Sep 2016, 9:29am

DaveP wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Boundary changes...
Add in the cost savings crib reducing 650 seats to 600 seats I think it's a good change....

What I find annoying was on this evening's C4 news where some politician was going on about how there were other ways they could save the money ! If there are any ways to save money they should be done as well. Not a question of politicians accepting wasting money on something because they are making savings elsewhere - if they are wasting money it should be stopped (irrespective of other possible savings).

Ian

Cost savings? Does anyone believe this will result in any?
By the time you have deducted the administrative costs of carrying out a change, extra staff for MPs to cope with the increased volume of correspondence per MP, extra expenses to cover the increased travel burden of actually touring the new larger constituencies and a bit of a pay rise for the lads to reimburse them for the added stress there wont be much left in the way of savings!
Whenever a government gets to redrawing constituency boundaries they're thinking about the next election.


It's not the government doing it.

thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Sep 2016, 10:00am

mikeonabike wrote: ... Obviously it would need a particular stimulus like the severe economic downturns that brought Hitler and Mussolini to power. Also an atmosphere of them against us. Now what might prompt that in Britain?


From your subsequent post, I presume this wasn't irony, because it might well have been.

Irrespective of Brexit, most of the world has been printing money for quite some time and there's been a spiral of currency devaluation. Since just about everybody is doing it, it's remained more or less in balance so no major economy has had a really bad crash. There's also been the strange phenomenon of the threat of deflation at the same time as money is being printed and I've seen that variously explained by cheap imports from China and people being worried about spending money, which doesn't fit well with the high levels or personal debt, fuelled by artificially low interest rates. If all that is evidence that economists don't really know what's happening, then it may be that a full-blown slump is waiting to be triggered.

Hilary Clinton's woes aren't making it any less likely that Donald Trump will be elected 45th President of the United States with what I fancy will be protectionist trade policies.

Foreigners of every type are blamed for most of our problems.

On the positive side, the Commander in Chief of our armed forces is neither a professional soldier nor a politician. In the unlikely event of a military coup I have a rather sentimental notion that the queen would go on telly like Juan Carlos did in Spain and order them back to barracks.

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pete75 » 14 Sep 2016, 4:02pm

pwa wrote:
mikeonabike wrote:Have any of you read the stuff about Orgreave and Hillsborough? But only loony lefties in the 80s thought Maggie's government had a hint of fascism.


Yet you can turn that around and say that even after all this time there is a refusal to accept what we were told back then, and a desire for truth. That is because there is something healthy in British life. Governments lie to us, the police lie to us, and eventually they are found out.


And sometimes they are found out is closer to the truth.

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pete75 » 14 Sep 2016, 4:10pm

We do have a populist nationalist, authoritarian and anti immigrant party that has a great deal of public support and recently managed to win a referendum.
Indeed Alan Sked, it's founder, described the party thus "They are racist and have been infected by the far-right" and "UKIP is even less liberal than the British National Party (BNP). Certainly, there is a symbiosis between elements of the parties"

mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby mercalia » 16 Sep 2016, 2:25am

Brexit dont mean Brexit now that Hinkley has the go ahead. so much for sovereignty letting a commy-capitalist govt like China make a nuclear bomb on these islands ( yes it is a bomb, remember Chernobyl?). Typical tory $ before the eyes just as they made the cost cuttting mistake that led to the Falklands war that killed so many people? May is going down in my estimation and look like we be getting Brexit Lite; better to stay in the EU I think now that civil war is round the corner between West and the East? We could play them nicely as we have always done in the past over the last few hundred years?

mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby mercalia » 16 Sep 2016, 3:14pm

not if the EU has its way?

"EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough"

They really dont get it do they? typical head in the sand response to an EU not fit for purpose?

http://a.msn.com/r/2/BBwd3tV?a=1&m=en-gb

djnotts
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Location: Nottingham

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby djnotts » 18 Sep 2016, 10:29am

" In the unlikely event of a military coup I have a rather sentimental notion that the queen would go on telly like Juan Carlos did in Spain and order them back to barracks."

No need for a coup as long as Tories in power. I doubt that the establishment - in the shape of the armed forces - would allow a Labour (as in left wing, Corbyn-style, REAL Labour) government. The military exist to protect the semi-feudal nation state led by the monarch.