** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 18 Dec 2018, 10:51am

merseymouth wrote:He talks about honesty. Well were the governments involved in the process of creating the European Single Currency honest even with themselves, let alone others?
With a number of countries is dire straits about their current solvency can the Euro provide the level playing field that it was supposed to.
One thing we should all certainly agree on is that the financial big hats have created a right old mess, Austerity?

But the other side to the argument is that by creating a single currency the speculation element was removed (at least partially).
Only very few people gain from such speculation.
The rest of us just pay and then pay again.

A complex and difficult experiment for sure, and hated by the self same speculators no doubt.

Indeed such folk are well represented amongst the "leave" campaigners and financiers.

At the moment we, as a Nation, would be better off had we joined the Euro, the pound having lost so much worth.

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 18 Dec 2018, 10:59am

thirdcrank wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
broadway wrote:But he's an expert so what would he know.
There are no 'experts' any more.

Only individuals who are, perhaps, better-informed than the Lumpenproletariat - and hence despised by them...


I had presumed it to be ironic.
So was my post....
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Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
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Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Dec 2018, 11:05am

I note that the repeated requests for details as to how the UK is run from Brussells, and how we don't make our own laws, continue to be studiously ignored.

My own MP doesn't/can't answer either. So don't worry: you're in bad company.
John

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 18 Dec 2018, 11:17am

merseymouth wrote:He talks about honesty. Well were the governments involved in the process of creating the European Single Currency honest even with themselves, let alone others?
With a number of countries is dire straits about their current solvency can the Euro provide the level playing field that it was supposed to.
One thing we should all certainly agree on is that the financial big hats have created a right old mess, Austerity?

There was not complete honesty when the single currency was implemented , but so much has changed since then, and little of it forseen by those who did it.

The EU has certainly been honest about Brexit. More so than the British government.

As for a level playing field, it will become more so over time on a country-to-country basis, but there are, and always will be areas that struggle financially compared to others. That happens within a country, or even a county, let alone across Europe. No one ever claimed the differences like that would be eliminated. To claim otherwise would be disingenuous.

Austerity is part of the problem, and the EU / IMF imposing it (as a condition for help) on struggling countries exacerbates the problems. That the 'financial big hats have created a right old mess' is a global problem, and to blame it on the EU, as many Brexiters have done is misplaced.

And let's not forget that the problems in those struggling countries are caused, or contributed to by their own government policies. The EU interfering too much will be seen badly, and just might precipitate the next X-exit.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 18 Dec 2018, 11:26am

Austerity in the UK has nothing to with the EU, or "financial big hats", whoever they may be.

It was a political decision to use the 2008 financial crisis to shrink the size of the state, implemented by Cameron, Clegg and Osborne.

Agree with it or not, it was not imposed from outside.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Hobbs1951 » 18 Dec 2018, 11:27am

Remainers continue to see leavers as stump-toothed xenophobes, and leave voters see remainers as hoity-toity snobs. Foreigners had a good view of Britain: sensible, even pragmatic - Mother of Parliaments, this view has been shattered by Brexit.

Britain was thought to have a Rolls Royce government, the Europeans ask how Britain could begin without a plan or appoint an addlepated poppinjay such as David Davies to act as chief negotiator.

The Brexit vote could almost have been designed to reveal long festering problems with the country: an elite educational system that puts too much emphasis on confidence and bluff and not enough on expertise, and a political system that selects it's leaders from a self-satisfied Oxbridge clique. In addition the UK has a London focused society that habitually ignores the rest of the UK, and a - Conservative - party that promotes so many pompius mediocrities.

Is Brexit a mistake or a reckoning ?

Don't blame me.
Last edited by Hobbs1951 on 18 Dec 2018, 11:28am, edited 1 time in total.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 18 Dec 2018, 11:27am

an interesting article from the BBC on 2nd referendums and an point about the dishonesty of the French in the way they handled an initial NO

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46591250
Last edited by mercalia on 18 Dec 2018, 11:29am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 18 Dec 2018, 11:28am

roubaixtuesday wrote:Austerity in the UK has nothing to with the EU, or "financial big hats", whoever they may be.

It was a political decision to use the 2008 financial crisis to shrink the size of the state, implemented by Cameron, Clegg and Osborne.

Agree with it or not, it was not imposed from outside.

I was writing of austerity in more general terms, and in relation to the Euro, rather than in the UK.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 18 Dec 2018, 11:53am

Vorpal wrote:I was writing of austerity in more general terms, and in relation to the Euro, rather than in the UK.


Sure - I wouldn't argue that the EU and/or Euro has a part in austerity in some countries or regions.

But there are everywhere other contributors, and particularly in the UK (this is a Brexit thread after all), the EU had absolutely no part in austerity whatsoever.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Dec 2018, 12:09pm

Rubaixtuesday wrote:

Austerity in the UK has nothing to with the EU, or "financial big hats", whoever they may be.

It was a political decision to use the 2008 financial crisis to shrink the size of the state, implemented by Cameron, Clegg and Osborne.

Agree with it or not, it was not imposed from outside


Absolutlely. EU imposed austerity did happen in profligate Greece. But the EU had, after all, loaned them massively through the European Bank. It isn't unusual for the lender to impose conditions of financial discipline.
John

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 18 Dec 2018, 12:11pm

merseymouth wrote:[...] seeing as how London Underground drivers can now earn over £100K !

Myth! The Sunday Times misinterpreted the answer to a Freedom of Information Act request. The 0.225% of "drivers" earning that are actually instructors, test train drivers or other specialists - they are still qualified drivers because they need to be for their job, but they're not just drivers. https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2018/1 ... ng-100000/
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Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Dec 2018, 12:17pm

There is a simple but useful rule to help you avoid being taken in by fake news: don't automaticlly accept the first thing you read.

Perhaps especially if it confirms your bias.
John

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 18 Dec 2018, 12:18pm

mercalia wrote:an interesting article from the BBC on 2nd referendums and an point about the dishonesty of the French in the way they handled an initial NO

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46591250

Why do you find it interesting?

Isn't Mrs May behaving like the French there, refusing us a referendum on the altered case now that Brexit has been defined? So would you say she's being dishonest?
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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 18 Dec 2018, 12:45pm

mercalia wrote:an interesting article from the BBC on 2nd referendums and an point about the dishonesty of the French in the way they handled an initial NO

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46591250
All this really demonstrates, is that referendums sure are a messy way of implementing 'democracy' and controlling legislation.

That's why we have a representative democracy. OK: the person you vote for doesn't always get elected: but the person who does get in has a duty to make themself reasonably well-informed about the political issues. And to use their vote in Parliament in reasonably intelligent way.

All right, you will argue: the expectation doesn't alway match the reality. Hence the "swivel-eyed-loons" and "snowflakes" infesting our noble legislative bodies at present. But we did try.

On the other hand, with the Referendum option, all bets are off. I'm sure that none of those clamouring for another Referendum, including myself, would be doing so if that really weren't the only way out. Just as those who leapt from the Titanic into the icy Atlantic waters, did so because it was their only chance...

I just hope we fare better than those poor souls.
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Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby broadway » 18 Dec 2018, 12:59pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi Broadway, You're certainly right about one thing - It Is A Bloody Long Read".
But as a Lay Preacher said to his congregation many years ago - If you don't strike oil in the first ten minutes stop BORING!

He talks about honesty. Well were the governments involved in the process of creating the European Single Currency honest even with themselves, let alone others?
With a number of countries is dire straits about their current solvency can the Euro provide the level playing field that it was supposed to.
One thing we should all certainly agree on is that the financial big hats have created a right old mess, Austerity?
Why can't we just stop taking cheap pot shots at each other and admit that we're doomed!
As I reach the age when I must make obvious choices, what type of handles on the coffin, do I really want a religious type send off - I just wish that the brighter folk than me could cut to the chase.
Only honest thing that I've seen lately is that they have finally admitted the Tuition Fees lark if basically flawed, that a fair number of Student loan debtors will get a free ride.
I'm tempted to try and join the band of Educated Scroungers. TTFN MM


Whatever the faults of the EU are you are avoiding the issue that we should have had a sensible of idea of what was wanted and achievable in the first place before staring the process so it is a bit late now to cut to the chase when we have negotiated ourselves in a corner. The arch leavers are still saying that no deal is the right outcome, even though a lot of them don't seem to have any idea of the ramifications and not many people are keen on the deal.

Immediately after the referendum my heart sunk as I thought about the short and long difficulties of renegotiating our position with the EU, the 27 and the rest of the world. Maybe if they had a plan in place there might have been a chance to work things out more smoothly. David Davis said "Brexit is more difficult than the moon landing", one advantage they had was they knew where it was.