Trump Wins!

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mercalia
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby mercalia » 22 Nov 2016, 1:11pm

Psamathe wrote:I see that Trump has now asked for Farage to be appointed UK's ambassador to the US! https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/22/nigel-farage-uk-ambassador-us-donald-trump. Do we get to chose who he appoints as the US's ambassador to the UK ?

It really is becoming a dynasty with appointments as a reward to friends and family.

Ian


well looks like Farage is an asset of some kind. Hard to beleive I know, but every sensible idea is being overturned it seems. I hope Mrs May is sensible and doesnt pull the Westminster snooty pose that has alientated them form the mass of electorate?

Mr Farage, who helped Mr Trump during his US presidential election campaign, said the suggestion had come as a "bolt from the blue", adding: "If I could help the UK in any way I would".

That offer is not to be ignored with the hostility of the EU about to be inflicted on us?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38060434

kwackers
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby kwackers » 22 Nov 2016, 1:15pm

mercalia wrote:well looks like Farage is an asset of some kind. Hard to beleive I know, but every sensible idea is being overturned it seems. I hope Mrs May is sensible and doesnt pull the Westminster snooty pose that has alientated them form the mass of electorate?

Farage an asset? He wasn't exactly a shining example as an MEP and his idea of brexit didn't appear to be anything of substance just the concept of 'leave'.

I think he's exactly like the guy in the pub that has a mate who can help or can get you rip off DVD's of the latest film.
Except as always happens it turns out his mate is neither cheap or good and the DVD's suffer from being poor quality videos from the back of a crowded cinema.
mercalia wrote:That offer is not to be ignored with the hostility of the EU about to be inflicted on us?

If it turned out the only way we can get a decent deal with the US is via a guy like Farage then we are in worse shape than I feared.

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meic
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby meic » 22 Nov 2016, 1:21pm

Farage an asset? He wasn't exactly a shining example as an MEP
Not as far as the establishment judges MPs he wasnt, but he did exactly what he promised and the people who voted for him wanted him to do.
I think it is called democratic representation. :wink:
Yma o Hyd

kwackers
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby kwackers » 22 Nov 2016, 1:26pm

meic wrote:Not as far as the establishment judges MPs he wasnt, but he did exactly what he promised and the people who voted for him wanted him to do.
I think it is called democratic representation. :wink:

That's not my point.
Did it demonstrate he had an ability to be anything other than an idiot? If not then why believe he's suddenly capable of being diplomatic?

Even when he tried to show the EU up in a bad light often he opened his mouth and idiocy simply streamed forth. He was frequently just plain wrong! Hardly the sort of performance you want in global politics.

SpannerGeek
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby SpannerGeek » 22 Nov 2016, 2:27pm

Farage overturned the establishment in probably the most sensational coup de grace in modern politics. Trump calls him Mr. Brexit. For good reason. In a way they have both overturned the establishment, the family elites who have milked Britain and U.S. for the last 40 years with their failed neoliberal claptrap.

They seem good allies, and share a common purpose. May might not like that, but it's the world she's been landed with, and doesn't seem to making much of a fist of it so far...

I'm no great admirer of Farage, but you can't deny his achievement, which has turned British and European politics on its head. Even if he only succeeds in making both entities think twice his place in history will be significant.

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mjr
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby mjr » 23 Nov 2016, 12:07am

SpannerGeek wrote:Farage overturned the establishment in probably the most sensational coup de grace in modern politics. Trump calls him Mr. Brexit. For good reason. In a way they have both overturned the establishment, the family elites who have milked Britain and U.S. for the last 40 years with their failed neoliberal claptrap.

Whereas Trump is different because he's the third generation of a family elite that's been milking US citizens for the last 90 years :lol:

Shouldn't ambassadors be from the diplomatic service in most cases or at least have some diplomatic skill? Rather than be the head of a minor party currently under investigation for misuse of public funds. http://news.sky.com/story/ukip-investig ... g-10667270
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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SpannerGeek
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby SpannerGeek » 23 Nov 2016, 4:20am

mjr wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:Farage overturned the establishment in probably the most sensational coup de grace in modern politics. Trump calls him Mr. Brexit. For good reason. In a way they have both overturned the establishment, the family elites who have milked Britain and U.S. for the last 40 years with their failed neoliberal claptrap.

Whereas Trump is different because he's the third generation of a family elite that's been milking US citizens for the last 90 years :lol:



That's just about 100% wrong. Fred Trump was building houses for a government program, he managed to persuade a desperate government construction programme that it would be a good idea to give $10.3 million to a company with literally no assets. It's literally a rags to riches story. The American dream if you like.

Trump Jnr would certainly remember what it was like to be 'poor'. Fred stumbled upon a business opportunity in an era of U.S. construction economics when there was effectively no competitive response. Ridiculous rumours fly around about what kind of cash Trump inherited. Basically he took quite a modest property business and within 30 years turned it into the $ billion business it is today.

Ignorance of American history and/or Trump's history on this forum is shocking. It's mostly gleaned from anti Trump press, which in this country is appallingly badly researched, probably deliberately so.

I'm no advocate of Trump, but to say that he's part of the old money 'family elites' of the U.S. is frankly kind of embarrassing. I'm prepared to give the man a chance in office. Which is still 2 months away for heaven's sake...

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syklist
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby syklist » 23 Nov 2016, 6:58am

SpannerGeek wrote:Farage overturned the establishment

Stop right there.

Who is in power right now? The Monster Raving Looney Party? The Socialist Party of Great Britain?

Has the Queen gone? The armed forces have been disbanded and replaced with people's militias? C of E is gone? The judicial system has been dismantled and replaced with people's courts?

As I have asked before, which establishment has Farage overturned? All I can see that has really changed is that Cameron has gone and we have BoJo as foreign minister. There rest of the establishment apparatus is still firmly in place.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

SpannerGeek
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby SpannerGeek » 23 Nov 2016, 7:15am

syklist wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:Farage overturned the establishment

Stop right there.

Who is in power right now? The Monster Raving Looney Party? The Socialist Party of Great Britain?

Has the Queen gone? The armed forces have been disbanded and replaced with people's militias? C of E is gone? The judicial system has been dismantled and replaced with people's courts?

As I have asked before, which establishment has Farage overturned? All I can see that has really changed is that Cameron has gone and we have BoJo as foreign minister. There rest of the establishment apparatus is still firmly in place.


No. They haven't gone yet. Not yet, but the plans they had have. (The plans for little people like you and me). I'm trying to gently break your naievete', what do you think the U.S. revolted against? The price of candy floss?

No, it was the established neoliberal order. There's no need to reply, you're 100% wrong too .

You stop, and read. Here's something to get you going:


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 37476.html

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/09/us ... ident.html

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syklist
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby syklist » 23 Nov 2016, 7:23am

SpannerGeek wrote:
syklist wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:Farage overturned the establishment

Stop right there.

Who is in power right now? The Monster Raving Looney Party? The Socialist Party of Great Britain?

Has the Queen gone? The armed forces have been disbanded and replaced with people's militias? C of E is gone? The judicial system has been dismantled and replaced with people's courts?

As I have asked before, which establishment has Farage overturned? All I can see that has really changed is that Cameron has gone and we have BoJo as foreign minister. There rest of the establishment apparatus is still firmly in place.


No. They haven't gone yet.

Thus nothing has been overturned.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

SpannerGeek
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby SpannerGeek » 23 Nov 2016, 7:28am

syklist wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:
syklist wrote:Stop right there.

Who is in power right now? The Monster Raving Looney Party? The Socialist Party of Great Britain?

Has the Queen gone? The armed forces have been disbanded and replaced with people's militias? C of E is gone? The judicial system has been dismantled and replaced with people's courts?

As I have asked before, which establishment has Farage overturned? All I can see that has really changed is that Cameron has gone and we have BoJo as foreign minister. There rest of the establishment apparatus is still firmly in place.


No. They haven't gone yet.

Thus nothing has been overturned.


Not yet. But there's another GE in the offing before Brexits over, I'll put my Campagnolo cycling cap on it. Chairman May won't see out her term.

Read, educate yourself. Try the world outside of your isolated, feather bedded, totally protectionist bubble of Norway. There's nothing like slumming it to improve the mind.

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syklist
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby syklist » 23 Nov 2016, 7:40am

SpannerGeek wrote:Read, educate yourself. Try the world outside of your isolated, feather bedded, totally protectionist bubble of Norway. There's nothing like slumming it to improve the mind.

You don't follow things very well do you. I am a British passport holder who was born in the UK and lived there for my first thirty years. Over ten of those were in an area of Greater Manchester that was a crime riddled hole especially in the post Thatcher 90s. Note that the crims were local, white natives of Manchester. Slumming it, does not even begin to describe the conditions there. So don't tell me about slumming, I know all about it, I know what it is like to only have enough money to pay a tiny mortage the day before payment was due with the money scraped together from three jobs. I know about Aldi and Lidl, joyriders and burglars. I once stopped an 8 year old from re-stealing a car, only to get my tyres slashed a few days later. Every time I left my car (that cost 60 quid) on the road too late at night I would get a window smashed. One Christmas day when I was at my parents someone tried to kick in my front door. Is that slumming it enough for you?

Metaphorically speaking I got on my bike to find myself a better future. After a good twenty years, the last few here in Norway, I can say that it has worked.

No-one gets something for nothing.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

Vorpal
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby Vorpal » 23 Nov 2016, 7:51am

SpannerGeek wrote:Trump Jnr would certainly remember what it was like to be 'poor'. Fred stumbled upon a business opportunity in an era of U.S. construction economics when there was effectively no competitive response. Ridiculous rumours fly around about what kind of cash Trump inherited. Basically he took quite a modest property business and within 30 years turned it into the $ billion business it is today.

'poor' has the little quote around it because you mean solidly middle class rather than wealthy elites?

Donald Trump's family was never poor in his life time, and wasn't even poor during the depression. Fred Trump made enough moeny on his first venture in the 1920s to make him comfortably middle class, and it only got better from there.

When Donald Trump started out in his own business, the 'small loan' he got from his father wasn't as important as the family reputation in business that allowed Donald to get backing and loans for his own business.

A modest property business? They reckoned Fred Trump was worth between $250 and 300 million when he died in 1999. The last time it was modest business was probably in the 1940s.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

SpannerGeek
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby SpannerGeek » 23 Nov 2016, 8:07am

Vorpal wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:Trump Jnr would certainly remember what it was like to be 'poor'. Fred stumbled upon a business opportunity in an era of U.S. construction economics when there was effectively no competitive response. Ridiculous rumours fly around about what kind of cash Trump inherited. Basically he took quite a modest property business and within 30 years turned it into the $ billion business it is today.

'poor' has the little quote around it because you mean solidly middle class rather than wealthy elites?

Donald Trump's family was never poor in his life time, and wasn't even poor during the depression. Fred Trump made enough moeny on his first venture in the 1920s to make him comfortably middle class, and it only got better from there.

When Donald Trump started out in his own business, the 'small loan' he got from his father wasn't as important as the family reputation in business that allowed Donald to get backing and loans for his own business.

A modest property business? They reckoned Fred Trump was worth between $250 and 300 million when he died in 1999. The last time it was modest business was probably in the 1940s.


Yes 'they' did reckon that. Trump jnr inherited mostly property, not cash. The press tell better lies. The establishment led press in the U.S. are the most venal, corrupt and self serving brand of idiocy you're likely to come across. I'm not speaking as an observer, but someone who had daily contact in a professional context. Having just returned from the U.S. in October, I can tell you (no matter what nice articles you might be able to yperlink to) the establishment are hopping mad, much like they are here.

Trump is in power. We don't understand what that means here in the UK (or Norway) but it's a volt face for U.S. politics and the corruption and collusion that's milked the country for the past 40 years.

When Trump says he's going to 'clean out the cess pit ', he really means it. He made his money honestly, above board, payed his taxes. You can't say that for his detractors.

Vorpal
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Re: Trump Wins!

Postby Vorpal » 23 Nov 2016, 8:24am

SpannerGeek wrote:
syklist wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:
No. They haven't gone yet.

Thus nothing has been overturned.


Not yet. But there's another GE in the offing before Brexits over, I'll put my Campagnolo cycling cap on it. Chairman May won't see out her term.

Read, educate yourself. Try the world outside of your isolated, feather bedded, totally protectionist bubble of Norway. There's nothing like slumming it to improve the mind.

I am curious about how that string of words has much to do with the point at hand.

Even if we accept the argument that Farage has overturned the establishment (I don't see any evidence of that), how is 'slumming it' going to educate syklist in some way that the truth will be revealed?

I have lived in slums in the US. I have lived much of my life in 'bad' neighborhoods. I have also lived in a working class village in rural England, and I now live in the 'totally protectionist bubble of Norway' and I also have difficulty seeing that anything has been overturned. Farage got his Brexit; a change in circumstances, surely, but an overturn of the establishment? Perhaps you have a different understanding of what that means than I do.

As forTrump, he may not be the political establishment, but his political appointments do not exactly fill me with hope.

I am willing to give him a chance, yes. There are some things on his to-do list that I quite like. But if he proceeds with bigotry, well, I will do what I can to fight him, and I hope that many others do, to.

SpannerGeek wrote:Trump is in power. We don't understand what that means here in the UK (or Norway) but it's a volt face for U.S. politics and the corruption and collusion that's milked the country for the past 40 years.

When Trump says he's going to 'clean out the cess pit ', he really means it. He made his money honestly, above board, payed his taxes. You can't say that for his detractors.

I understand what it means, and I hope he does 'clean out the cess pit' because it needs cleaning. But I seriously have my doubts, not least because the Republicans who will control both houses of congress have no interest in cess pit cleaning, and some of the most important reforms (gerrymandering, lobbying), will depend on legislation.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom