Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

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SpannerGeek
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby SpannerGeek » 22 Nov 2016, 7:58am

syklist wrote:
blackbike wrote:For most UK people freedom to move to many places in the EU like Poland, Spain, Bulgaria or anywhere else is largely meaningless as they are not wanted economically.

Not workers necessarily workers, but I've read of pensioners from the UK (and other European countries) who have retired to places such Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary. A UK pension goes much further in those parts of Europe.


Since the devaluation in the pound, it goes about exactly 18% LESS far.

tyreon
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby tyreon » 22 Nov 2016, 8:56am

I am wondering how many qualified or unqualified workers have left Britain to go take up work in Bulgaria or Romania, for example? And,can I help anyone here who values the move? Most recently I see children can get work there stuffing Kinder Eggs for .22p an hour. When there last year a well spoken professor of English approached me asking money from me for a heart medication. Taught English. Shakespeare nerd. I saw other well-dressed people going through bins(looking for food?) All the people were very pleasant. If I were a Romanian or Bulgarian I would want to come to Britain,and having been learnt to speak English moving here would would be to my advantage! With properly policed equal opportunities I believe we could replace what I shall term the 'educated elite' with better equivalents for less than half price: savings all round! I was thinking of starting this process going through Whitehall, but the top-down cost cutting pro European measure could soon and quickly be moved out to top table armed forces personnel,education chiefs,House of Fraud members. There! freedom of movement isn't all that bad now,is it?

pwa
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby pwa » 22 Nov 2016, 9:38am

It amazes me that the suggestion that EU leaders will be hard on the UK in order to deter dissent in their own countries does not produce more condemnation on this Forum. Don't we believe that the citizens of France, Hungary or wherever should have a free choice, without having their arms twisted? I believe that political leaders should be treating their citizens with respect, and trying to put their choices into action in a constructive way. If the EU governments believe in the EU they should make a positive case to their electorates, and not try to scare them by making life hard for those who have opted out.

If that really is how EU politics is going I am more glad than ever that we decided to leave. It stinks.

kwackers
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby kwackers » 22 Nov 2016, 9:45am

pwa wrote:If that really is how EU politics is going I am more glad than ever that we decided to leave. It stinks.

Shame we can't leave UK politics because in my opinion it stinks more. At least the EU is being protectionist, I'm not sure what we're being. Oh wait, actually I do, we're continuing to make sure the money keeps on going upwards - at least for the important folk.

Psamathe
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 22 Nov 2016, 10:00am

syklist wrote:
blackbike wrote:For most UK people freedom to move to many places in the EU like Poland, Spain, Bulgaria or anywhere else is largely meaningless as they are not wanted economically.

Not workers necessarily workers, but I've read of pensioners from the UK (and other European countries) who have retired to places such Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary. A UK pension goes much further in those parts of Europe.

You raise an interesting aspect. everybody focuses on how high our migration data is but ignore the fact that the data quotes are "Net Migration" and that includes a significant emigration from UK citizens. for example, in the 2016 data where net migration was over 300,000 (shock horror), there was actually 126,000 British citizens emigrating so had those British citizens not emigrated then the net migration figure would have been around 553,000.

Given how many British emigrating can be retirees and many EU coming to UK are coming to work (e.g. NHS, seasonal fruit picking, all those people businesses are worried about losing, etc.), stopping Freedom of Movement will stop a significant number of those British emigrating and we need the workers from overseas to keep the economy going so the immigration figures will immediately get dramatically worse !!!



Ian

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syklist
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby syklist » 22 Nov 2016, 10:01am

pwa wrote:It amazes me that the suggestion that EU leaders will be hard on the UK in order to deter dissent in their own countries does not produce more condemnation on this Forum.

It is the May government that has interpreted the result of the advisory referendum in such a way that a "hard Brexit" is the only way forward. See:

Psamathe wrote:
syklist wrote:...
Access to the single market depends on free movement of labour in addition to goods, services and capital....

But the referendum only asked about us leaving the EU. There were no questions about stopping Freedom of Movement nor about leaving the EEA/Free Trade Area. So how come we are somehow magically destined to break with our main trading parrtner and stop Freedom of Movement when this was never asked and Parliament is getting no say on the matter?


In addition, it has been clear from the outset that, even in the case of EEA countries, you can only have access to the EU single market if you accept, among other things, freedom of movement of labour, implementation of EU directives and standards in your own laws and paying something for the privilege of access. So the EU has not hardened it's tone there, just re-stated its position.

So is it the EU that is being unreasonably hard on the UK or the supporters of brexit with unreasonably expectations as to what the EU would be prepared offer? When you hear BoJo's statements on "prosecco", I have to ask what signal you think is BoJo trying to send to the EU and why you think that the EU *should* kowtow to the UK government's exceptional demands?
Last edited by syklist on 22 Nov 2016, 10:11am, edited 1 time in total.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

pwa
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby pwa » 22 Nov 2016, 10:08am

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:If that really is how EU politics is going I am more glad than ever that we decided to leave. It stinks.

Shame we can't leave UK politics because in my opinion it stinks more. At least the EU is being protectionist, I'm not sure what we're being. Oh wait, actually I do, we're continuing to make sure the money keeps on going upwards - at least for the important folk.


But don't you agree that the EU is trying to persuade its own people to stay in the EU by making the alternative unpalatable? Do you think that is right? Do you think that is how governments should treat their own people? Don't you think that they should concentrate on making the EU attractive rather than trying to punch a hole in the boat that some of their citizens might otherwise choose to step into?

Psamathe
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 22 Nov 2016, 10:11am

pwa wrote:It amazes me that the suggestion that EU leaders will be hard on the UK in order to deter dissent in their own countries does not produce more condemnation on this Forum. Don't we believe that the citizens of France, Hungary or wherever should have a free choice, without having their arms twisted? I believe that political leaders should be treating their citizens with respect, and trying to put their choices into action in a constructive way. If the EU governments believe in the EU they should make a positive case to their electorates, and not try to scare them by making life hard for those who have opted out.

If that really is how EU politics is going I am more glad than ever that we decided to leave. It stinks.

They are not "punishing the UK". They are acting to defuse the threats to the EU posed by their own versions of UKIP. If the UK gets a fabulous deal (e.g. Free Trade but no payment, no Freedom of Movement, no regulations, etc.) then obviously all the other member states would want the same deal (all the perks and none of the obligations).

So all they are talking about is "if you leave you leave and you can't have the benefits without the obligations". Basically they regard the four freedoms as fundamental (and that is not a recent thing, not in response to UK leaving). And they are just pointing out that Free Trade comes with the other 3 Freedoms (and that Boris, Gove, IDS, et al are in no position to pick and chose the benefits they want whilst having none of the obligations).

So no punishment, just upholding their established principles.

Of course the anti-EU people talk about "punishment" because that stirs up even more anti-EU sentiment and helps their anti-WU campaign (and that seems to work from reading comments here).

Ian

kwackers
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby kwackers » 22 Nov 2016, 10:18am

pwa wrote:But don't you agree that the EU is trying to persuade its own people to stay in the EU by making the alternative unpalatable? Do you think that is right? Do you think that is how governments should treat their own people? Don't you think that they should concentrate on making the EU attractive rather than trying to punch a hole in the boat that some of their citizens might otherwise choose to step into?

I don't follow your logic. They're making staying in the EU attractive to their member states.
You can't punish someone by making them follow the rules they helped create and then lied to their own people effectively saying the rules wouldn't apply because "we're too important".

I'm not even sure who they're supposedly punishing. We've already told EU citizens they're not welcome, so if the UK becomes unattractive then that's our doing not theirs.

Over here the only people being punished are the poor and those with low skills.
If you've got suitable skills then you can go wherever you want in the EU and sell your skills, just as their denizens can do here (assuming they're daft enough to come).
If you're one of the plebs then it's tough. You have to stay here and eke out a living regardless of how much the government stuff the country up and make your life hard.

What's the alternative? Let the EU collapse and hope everyone can ride the storm?
I can't imagine a collapsing EU will do anyone any favours. It'll make the Great Depression look like M&S running out of tea cakes.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby PDQ Mobile » 22 Nov 2016, 10:21am

"It'll make the Great Depression look like M&S running out of tea cakes."
:lol:

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syklist
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby syklist » 22 Nov 2016, 10:33am

PDQ Mobile wrote:"It'll make the Great Depression look like M&S running out of tea cakes."
:lol:

Good heavens! There is something worse than M&S running out of tea cakes? :mrgreen:
So long and thanks for all the fish...

pwa
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby pwa » 22 Nov 2016, 10:37am

Psamathe wrote:
pwa wrote:It amazes me that the suggestion that EU leaders will be hard on the UK in order to deter dissent in their own countries does not produce more condemnation on this Forum. Don't we believe that the citizens of France, Hungary or wherever should have a free choice, without having their arms twisted? I believe that political leaders should be treating their citizens with respect, and trying to put their choices into action in a constructive way. If the EU governments believe in the EU they should make a positive case to their electorates, and not try to scare them by making life hard for those who have opted out.

If that really is how EU politics is going I am more glad than ever that we decided to leave. It stinks.

They are not "punishing the UK". They are acting to defuse the threats to the EU posed by their own versions of UKIP. If the UK gets a fabulous deal (e.g. Free Trade but no payment, no Freedom of Movement, no regulations, etc.) then obviously all the other member states would want the same deal (all the perks and none of the obligations).

So all they are talking about is "if you leave you leave and you can't have the benefits without the obligations". Basically they regard the four freedoms as fundamental (and that is not a recent thing, not in response to UK leaving). And they are just pointing out that Free Trade comes with the other 3 Freedoms (and that Boris, Gove, IDS, et al are in no position to pick and chose the benefits they want whilst having none of the obligations).

So no punishment, just upholding their established principles.

Of course the anti-EU people talk about "punishment" because that stirs up even more anti-EU sentiment and helps their anti-WU campaign (and that seems to work from reading comments here).

Ian


Either EU leaders are dealing with the UK in a way that is meant to quell dissent in their own countries, or they are not. Which is it? Should their own electorates be happy about being guided in that way?

The UK needs to come away with some restrictions on EU/UK labour movement. So the UK must make concessions. That's how grown up negotiations work. Making a contribution to EU development funds seems like an obvious starting point. It could be argued that developing the less developed economies of the EU is in our interest anyway.

pwa
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby pwa » 22 Nov 2016, 10:40am

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:But don't you agree that the EU is trying to persuade its own people to stay in the EU by making the alternative unpalatable? Do you think that is right? Do you think that is how governments should treat their own people? Don't you think that they should concentrate on making the EU attractive rather than trying to punch a hole in the boat that some of their citizens might otherwise choose to step into?

I don't follow your logic. They're making staying in the EU attractive to their member states.
You can't punish someone by making them follow the rules they helped create and then lied to their own people effectively saying the rules wouldn't apply because "we're too important".

I'm not even sure who they're supposedly punishing. We've already told EU citizens they're not welcome, so if the UK becomes unattractive then that's our doing not theirs.

Over here the only people being punished are the poor and those with low skills.
If you've got suitable skills then you can go wherever you want in the EU and sell your skills, just as their denizens can do here (assuming they're daft enough to come).
If you're one of the plebs then it's tough. You have to stay here and eke out a living regardless of how much the government stuff the country up and make your life hard.

What's the alternative? Let the EU collapse and hope everyone can ride the storm?
I can't imagine a collapsing EU will do anyone any favours. It'll make the Great Depression look like M&S running out of tea cakes.


The OP's Guardian article suggested that the driving force behind the EU taking a hard line with the UK was going to be the desire to stifle anti-EU sentiment within the remaining EU nations.

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meic
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby meic » 22 Nov 2016, 10:42am

Making a contribution to EU development funds seems like an obvious starting point.
That would be an act of bad faith with the people, after all the main referendum promise was that we would retain the £350 million to spend on the NHS, not continue to contribute after leaving.
Yma o Hyd

kwackers
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby kwackers » 22 Nov 2016, 10:45am

pwa wrote:The OP's Guardian article suggested that the driving force behind the EU taking a hard line with the UK was going to be the desire to stifle anti-EU sentiment within the remaining EU nations.

And what is anti-EU sentiment? What was it for us?

The idea that you can do just as well sorting out your own deals.

So rather than give us a cushy number in order to 'help us out' they're effectively saying "these are the rules you signed up for, have a nice day".
If it turns out worse for us who's to blame? Us.
If we make a success of it then perhaps the EU would be better broken up - but I'm not holding my breath.

I don't get this idea that they've got it in for us by not allowing us to sidestep the very rules that hold the EU together!
We helped form those rules, we obviously thought they were good at the time...