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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 23 Nov 2016, 1:22pm
by SpannerGeek
pwa wrote:
mercalia wrote:Norway and its sovereign fund - I wish I was Norwegian, has a sensible govt. Does Norway have a national debt?


As with Saudi Arabia the answer is probably No. But does it matter? Is it relevant to anything? Norway has been very lucky to find itself sitting on a huge reservoir of hydrocarbons, making life easy for a relatively small population. Great for them, and I wish them well, but with no real lessons for the rest of us.


Maybe a lesson for viewers in Scotland? Become independent, start an oil fund. Invest the profits globally, then spend till your heart's content. The norwegians have actually run OUT of public projects to build. It really is that simple.

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 23 Nov 2016, 1:28pm
by SpannerGeek
SpannerGeek wrote:
pwa wrote:
mercalia wrote:Norway and its sovereign fund - I wish I was Norwegian, has a sensible govt. Does Norway have a national debt?


As with Saudi Arabia the answer is probably No. But does it matter? Is it relevant to anything? Norway has been very lucky to find itself sitting on a huge reservoir of hydrocarbons, making life easy for a relatively small population. Great for them, and I wish them well, but with no real lessons for the rest of us.


Maybe a lesson for viewers in Scotland? Become independent, start an oil fund. Invest the profits globally, then spend till your heart's content. The norwegians have actually run OUT of public projects to build. It really is that simple.


Put it this way, Norway's sovereign fund (in a country of just over 5 million) is almost equal to the national debt burden ($1 trillion) of the entire UK (65 million people).

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 23 Nov 2016, 1:40pm
by syklist
SpannerGeek wrote:Maybe a lesson for viewers in Scotland? Become independent, start an oil fund. Invest the profits globally, then spend till your heart's content. The norwegians have actually run OUT of public projects to build. It really is that simple.

I can assure you that the Norwegians have plenty of public projects to build. One, for example is a ferry free E39. That will be a very big and expensive undertaking - the budget for the current plans has doubled already from the first estimates.

I'd also like to correct the implication that the Norwegians spend lots of the sovereign fund. There are a number of reasons why they don't one is it would create internal inflation if they did so for example by starting a whole load of new projects. It would also mean using non-Norwegian construction companies to do the work. There have been some problems with this such as an Austrian firm that went bust halfway through a project and a Spanish firm with plenty of tunnel building experience but apparently not up to speed with Norwegian Health and Safety regulations.

The Norwegian government still has to balance the books at the end of the day and are not allowed to take out more than a certain amount from the fund to achieve this.

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 24 Nov 2016, 6:28pm
by The_Master
We are out, so let's stay out.
Freedom of movement isn't a good thing for this country. We need English jobs for English people, simple!

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 24 Nov 2016, 6:36pm
by meic
Freedom of movement isn't a good thing for this country. We need English jobs for English people, simple!
I agree with that but we just cant seem to get out of the Union.

We are out, so let's stay out.
The chickens are not scheduled to hatch for at least two years.

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 24 Nov 2016, 7:24pm
by irc
pwa wrote:
mercalia wrote:Norway and its sovereign fund - I wish I was Norwegian, has a sensible govt. Does Norway have a national debt?


As with Saudi Arabia the answer is probably No.


The answer for Saudi Arabia is yes. Their oil revenues at current prices are not enough to cover their spending. They have just raised $17Bnof new debt on top of previous borrowing.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... eign-bonds

The Saudis are currently trying to sell 5% of the state oil company for $100Bn to raise cash. Things are not good if they are selling part of the only thing they have that earns foreign currency.

http://euanmearns.com/the-aramco-ipo-an ... -reserves/

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 24 Nov 2016, 7:43pm
by landsurfer
The_Master wrote:We are out, so let's stay out.
Freedom of movement isn't a good thing for this country. We need English jobs for English people, simple!


But what if the English won't get off their ***** and do the work.
My son in law is 40.
Never worked. Never !!!!
I'm up at 0430hrs , 12 hour, 500 mile days while he sits, fag in hand watching footie !!!
:twisted:

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 24 Nov 2016, 8:06pm
by PDQ Mobile
irc wrote:The answer for Saudi Arabia is yes. Their oil revenues at current prices are not enough to cover their spending. They have just raised $17Bnof new debt on top of previous borrowing.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-19/saudi-arabia-poised-to-sell-record-17-5-billion-sovereign-bonds


I sort of thought I had seen that somewhere but was too uncertain to pass comment.

It does sort of beg the question though that where do we as a nation get the cash we are about to borrow? And who do we owe the cash to that we borrowed already?
(to whom!)
It was sort of touched on in an earlier thread "Debt" but I never felt very sure about any of the answers.
It remains ( to me anyway) a great mystery.

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 24 Nov 2016, 8:38pm
by The_Master
landsurfer wrote:
The_Master wrote:We are out, so let's stay out.
Freedom of movement isn't a good thing for this country. We need English jobs for English people, simple!


But what if the English won't get off their ***** and do the work.
My son in law is 40.
Never worked. Never !!!!
I'm up at 0430hrs , 12 hour, 500 mile days while he sits, fag in hand watching footie !!!
:twisted:

The are plenty of English who don't want to work, but there are plenty that do and can't find work.
Almost every coffee shop or the like is staffed by east Europeans. Literally everywhere!

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 24 Nov 2016, 8:49pm
by PDQ Mobile
They do know how to serve coffee though!
Very often politely and with grace.
That is not always the case with English waiters and waitresses.IMHO

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 24 Nov 2016, 9:35pm
by kwackers
I think the English have had their expectations raised a bit too much when it comes to work. Anecdotally I know a few who won't work because the types of jobs offered don't suit them - i.e. they require actual effort or are seen as menial.

We're in a period of historically low unemployment so it's difficult to see why it should be worse now for folk to find jobs than ever before - unless of course it isn't.

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 8:06am
by tyreon
I think it's sometimes difficult for the 45 yo to get work when competing with Eastern Europeans(this when made unemployed). By 45 they're prob married with kids,thus not mobile. Plus jobs on offer zero hours,short term contract,demanding 'new skills' that the codgers now haven't got and find it difficult to acquire. I guess the 'English slobs' could be forced to up-root and go to live in London in a caravan or share in a bedsit with 2/3 others 20 -30 years old. Maybe the gov. could give em a pass home x1 per month. At the same time,their partners separated from their partners(now down in London?),would be in another bedsit with kid in Middlesboro,forced to work thru IDS. Another solution would be for her to abandon the kids to the SS and the bill could be picked up by the taxpayer. Getting down the wages and bringing in more people to make us more competitive is a priority...well,according to our elite(too long to list)

Luckily we're all working longer before we get to retirement...and there's no such thing as being disabled these days! Will it be 75 before you can retire soon? Work till you drop! Bit hard for the plumbers and fitters of the land,but for those who sit on the red and green benches a nice jolly :D

See they're discussing making wearing fake medals a crime today! Nice earner. Wonder what's for lunch down there. PS Expenses anyone :) :(

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 9:38am
by kwackers
tyreon wrote:I think it's sometimes difficult for the 45 yo to get work when competing with Eastern Europeans(this when made unemployed). By 45 they're prob married with kids,thus not mobile. Plus jobs on offer zero hours,short term contract,demanding 'new skills' that the codgers now haven't got and find it difficult to acquire.

I think that's a whole separate issue. It's not just Eastern Europeans you have to compete with, it's youngsters who'll often happily work for less and work every hour available.
As a 56 year old bloke who does contract work in a high tech industry I'm well aware of whom my competitors are.
As for learning new skills - anyone can learn new skills, I do it all the time. I seriously wouldn't expect to be able to compete with the youngsters if I don't. In fact I'd say given the way the world is changing anyone who isn't prepared to learn new stuff is guaranteed to be out of a job.

AI is the next big thing, and it's something that will hit a lot of the middle class desk jobs hard. Now that's going to be interesting... ;)

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 12:46pm
by Stevek76
PDQ Mobile wrote:I sort of thought I had seen that somewhere but was too uncertain to pass comment.

It does sort of beg the question though that where do we as a nation get the cash we are about to borrow? And who do we owe the cash to that we borrowed already?
(to whom!)
It was sort of touched on in an earlier thread "Debt" but I never felt very sure about any of the answers.
It remains ( to me anyway) a great mystery.


My understanding of it is that if it's actual borrowing it's in the form of bonds/glits etc that are sold to the market in general. They are generally picked up by low yield 'safe' funds and the kind of customers who go for those (pension funds etc). The bonds are sold with a coupon rate which is basically an interest rate and vary in length from a few to many (30??) years. The rate is fixed as far as the government is concerned for the full length of the bond but the value of resales on the market can vary. When issuing new bonds the government has to sell them at a coupon rate that actually gets them sold, hence if a country's debt becomes less attractive relative to the world, interest rate of new debt will rise.

QE meanwhile is where the BoE essentially 'prints' money to then buy existing government debt from the market.

The BoE has a rather good bulletin on money here: http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publicat ... b14q1.aspx

The_Master wrote:The are plenty of English who don't want to work, but there are plenty that do and can't find work.
Almost every coffee shop or the like is staffed by east Europeans. Literally everywhere!


Even at the depths of the post 2008 crash recession there was no point where firstbus in bristol was not advertising for full time bus drivers ('all training provided'). There are thousands of vacancies around currently, some might involve having to move a bit but that's always been the way, jobs are often constrained to where they need to be.

tyreon wrote:Will it be 75 before you can retire soon? Work till you drop! Bit hard for the plumbers and fitters of the land,but for those who sit on the red and green benches a nice jolly


So back to how it used to be when pensions first came in. I'm not suggesting that this is a good thing but there does seem to be this odd impression that working till you drop is something new. The amount of time people are spending as dependants of the economy has grown rapid over the last few decades - at both ends. As automation increases (there may be no need for bus/taxi/HGV drivers in a couple of decades) in this is going to need a serious rethink of how the economy works (flat rate citizens income perhaps).

Which is another point there, automation is going to make 'immigrants are stealing our jobs' look like a minor issue.

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 4:05pm
by tyreon
We're all contributing our way to making ourselves redundant,we can't help it. Self service check-outs: make the check-out girl redundant. Travel agent: do our own booking on-line. Banking: buy computer,send cashier to Jobcentre. Photography: develop your own pics,close down city shop. University degree: you can do it yourself online these days,sack tutors and chancellors. CBT: read a book,follow instructions,return cured. Physical health: buy work out machine or video,follow instructions,close gym centre. In the future we may be able to make that part of ourselves that has been made redundant redundant x2 eg sack my travel agent self by buying 3d glasses,go to Africa without having to fly.