Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

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syklist
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby syklist » 2 Dec 2016, 6:21am

Tangled Metal wrote:Whatever I still hold that Thatcher is no better or worse than later leaders or earlier leaders. They all do harm in different ways.

That's fine, but you have to expect that people will disagree with you.

Changing the subject to take the fire away from the person in question (or widening the subject as you like to call it) or asking people to bog off somewhere else will not stop the original debate. It will merely add fuel to the fire as it appears to people who do not agree with you to be a defence of the indefensible.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby Cunobelin » 2 Dec 2016, 6:28am

syklist wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Funny how prime ministers get voted in but some time after their leadership has ended their popularity conveniently gets forgotten and they move into the reviled or hatred category. I believe it happens a lot. Thatcher has been very popular but now some people on here are painting a wholly negative picture of them. If they were only as bad as they make out then how did they get elected?

It is called hindsight which most Brits are good at. It's a shame that we're not so good at thinking through the consequences before we vote.

More importantly how did the Thatcherites end up with a massive majority in the House of Commons with a minority of the popular vote?


An intersting question.....

When you look at the detail of Blair's "Landslide" that brought NULabour into power, they had fewer votes cast for them than Major's tories had in the previous general election

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syklist
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby syklist » 2 Dec 2016, 7:00am

Cunobelin wrote:
syklist wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Funny how prime ministers get voted in but some time after their leadership has ended their popularity conveniently gets forgotten and they move into the reviled or hatred category. I believe it happens a lot. Thatcher has been very popular but now some people on here are painting a wholly negative picture of them. If they were only as bad as they make out then how did they get elected?

It is called hindsight which most Brits are good at. It's a shame that we're not so good at thinking through the consequences before we vote.

More importantly how did the Thatcherites end up with a massive majority in the House of Commons with a minority of the popular vote?


An intersting question.....

When you look at the detail of Blair's "Landslide" that brought NULabour into power, they had fewer votes cast for them than Major's tories had in the previous general election

So why do the British still have such a strong affection for the "first past the post" system given the Thatcher and Blair elected dictatorships and the stalemate that lead to the Tory-Lib dem coalition and now the complete confusion that is the governments Brexit process?
So long and thanks for all the fish...

Tangled Metal
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby Tangled Metal » 2 Dec 2016, 8:09am

Did I read it right that Thatcher is responsible for the Johnny foreigner taking our jobs attitude? I'm too young but I'm sure equality legislation came after a period when there was open prejudice and division. I'm sure some here remember the "no blacks, no Irish" signs put up back in the 60s I believe. Thatcher own that division too?

Division over foreign workers date back well before Thatcher, but don't let that get in the way of a nice narrative for your political views.

As far as destruction of industry goes it looks like that and she certainly advocated service industries. Indeed I think she was into the idea of knowledge based industry, something later leaders went on about too. I just wonder what effect loss of competitiveness contributed due to other factors like, oh say union activity? I've seen plenty of documentaries over the years about US car industry arguing that the attitudes within the industry accounted for a lot of their problems. Could that not happen here as well? I reckon Thatcher policies, carried on by later governments, accounted for a lot of the decline though it wasn't the whole story.

I also find it interesting how this forum carries out political stories of a partisan nature. Other sites you'd have a more even discussion which also descends into two sides arguing. The difference is that earlier than 6 pages in there would be links to reports and research backing up arguments. The more official looking the better. Although a classic was a link to a Westminster online database file espousing a biased viewpoint. Turns out it was a submission from a political lobby organization to a committee relating to an investigation they were doing. One of many thousands. Just a pamphlet from the organization without any corroboration or academic weight behind it but passed off as the truth. Others are links to IFS or audit office or OECD. My point being this forum doesn't get bogged down in point scoring on political issues that goes on endlessly. Polarised views are rarely changed.

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syklist
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby syklist » 2 Dec 2016, 9:19am

Tangled Metal wrote:Did I read it right that Thatcher is responsible for the Johnny foreigner taking our jobs attitude?

She really liked "Them and us" and used it to divide the country further. "Them and us" can be applied in all circumstances men vs women, rich vs poor, public school vs state school, militarists vs pacifists, north vs south, black vs white, miners vs law abiding citizens. It's the worst of labels as can be used for anything. If you don't campaign against it then you will end up with a political dialogue that consists mostly of labelling and grouping people along such tribal lines - for example foreigners vs the English, muslims vs chrisitians, those who are taking our jobs and clogging our roads vs those who have the only god given right to be here.

As I have said before Thatcher was responsible for hardening and polarising the political landscape in the UK in a way that has not happened since. As others have pointed out those who came after merely took advantage of the new rules of engagement and fiddled round the edges of her policies.

I have been out of the country for a while, so help me. What policy changes have post Thatcher governments implemented that have had such a big impact on UK society as the closure of the coal mining industry (including the political bitterness that came with it)?
So long and thanks for all the fish...

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Dec 2016, 11:09am

Tangled Metal wrote:Did I read it right that Thatcher is responsible for the Johnny foreigner taking our jobs attitude? I


Thatcher is responsible for this as well as my bread going mouldy, punctures and the fall of Rome in 410

Ben@Forest
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Dec 2016, 12:44pm

syklist wrote:I have been out of the country for a while, so help me. What policy changes have post Thatcher governments implemented that have had such a big impact on UK society as the closure of the coal mining industry (including the political bitterness that came with it)?


By the time Thatcher came to power nearly 900 deep pits had closed since WW2. The Conservatives had closed more than Labour but had had a significantly longer period in office so there isn't much difference in terms of the overall ratio of which party closed more mines. Thatcher is largely vilified because she closed most of the last of them - not because she closed a lot. As is often quoted Wilson closed more than twice as many pits as Thatcher.

For right or wrong the British public had had enough of over-powerful unions calling the tune - and Scargill was the epitome of this - he genuinely believed it was his (or the NUM's) right to bring down a democratically elected government. And I would say that there have been much bigger impacts on UK society; Scottish devolution which has led to Scottish populism; successive governments being in thrall to the European project which has led to massive immigration and ultimately the Brexit vote - and there's resounding bitterness about that - just read this forum!

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syklist
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby syklist » 5 Dec 2016, 1:41pm

Ben@Forest wrote:For right or wrong the British public had had enough of over-powerful unions calling the tune - and Scargill was the epitome of this - he genuinely believed it was his (or the NUM's) right to bring down a democratically elected government. And I would say that there have been much bigger impacts on UK society; Scottish devolution which has led to Scottish populism; successive governments being in thrall to the European project which has led to massive immigration and ultimately the Brexit vote - and there's resounding bitterness about that - just read this forum!

So we have replaced the all powerful unions with the all powerful Brexit movement, where a minority of voters have forced the removal of a democratically elected leader from power and forced the majority of the people living and working in the UK on a path that will take them unwillingly out of the EU.

Well there's progress for you.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

Ben@Forest
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Dec 2016, 2:05pm

syklist wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:So we have replaced the all powerful unions with the all powerful Brexit movement, where a minority of voters have forced the removal of a democratically elected leader from power and forced the majority of the people living and working in the UK on a path that will take them unwillingly out of the EU.

Well there's progress for you.


To be fair David Cameron was not a directly elected leader who was deposed - he was chosen by his MPs and Conservatives to represent their party and ultimately became Prime Minister. And you cannot be sure 'the majority of the people living and working in the UK are unwillingly being taken out of the EU'. The majority of those who voted voted out and though it is true 13 million didn't vote perhaps it was because all of them didn't care one way or the other. They obviously didn't care enough to want to vote to stay in.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Dec 2016, 2:16pm

Isn't Brexit Thatcher's fault or Brexit not happening Thatcher's fault depending on your views?

I'm just following the logic that all that is wrong or wrong decisions by parliament/ governments since Thatcher is her fault then surely Brexit is down to her as well as Blair's war and Libya and the 2008 financial crisis and...

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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Dec 2016, 2:23pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Isn't Brexit Thatcher's fault or Brexit not happening Thatcher's fault depending on your views?

I'm just following the logic that all that is wrong or wrong decisions by parliament/ governments since Thatcher is her fault then surely Brexit is down to her as well as Blair's war and Libya and the 2008 financial crisis and...


I think there's an argument that all problems in the NHS are Attlee's fault because he didn't foresee the need for repeated hip or knee replacements, cancer treatments, bariatric surgery, transgender operations or breast implants for cosmetic reasons.... :wink:

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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Dec 2016, 2:25pm

I blame the Romans. If they.hadn't invaded then we'd still be Britons and I doubt all this rubbish would have happened.... :wink:

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syklist
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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby syklist » 5 Dec 2016, 2:30pm

Ben@Forest wrote: And you cannot be sure 'the majority of the people living and working in the UK are unwillingly being taken out of the EU'. The majority of those who voted voted out and though it is true 13 million didn't vote perhaps it was because all of them didn't care one way or the other. They obviously didn't care enough to want to vote to stay in.

You are right, I cannot be sure but I would be extremely surprised if a majority of the 3 million or so EU citizens living in the UK would have voted for Brexit if they had been given the chance to take part in the referendum.

They live and work in the UK too. As do non-EU immigrants.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Dec 2016, 2:49pm

syklist wrote:You are right, I cannot be sure but I would be extremely surprised if a majority of the 3 million or so EU citizens living in the UK(?) would have voted for Brexit if they had been given the chance to take part in the referendum.

They live and work in the UK too. As do non-EU immigrants.


I've added in UK there as I guess that's what you meant. But you can't expect non-British citizens to be able to vote on what essentially a matter for its citizens. You live in Norway are you a Norwegian citizen? - great and I hope you feel fully represented. I lived in Germany for five years, at no point did I feel I should have a vote for any local, federal or national election. Not my country - not my decision.

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Re: Why was Thatcher given a state funeral ??

Postby pete75 » 5 Dec 2016, 3:50pm

Ben@Forest wrote:And you cannot be sure 'the majority of the people living and working in the UK are unwillingly being taken out of the EU'. The majority of those who voted voted out and though it is true 13 million didn't vote perhaps it was because all of them didn't care one way or the other. They obviously didn't care enough to want to vote to stay in.


Lord Ashcrofst exit polls on the referendum http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/


"A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension."

It would seem a majority of those living and working in the UK did vote to remain in the EU. They were taken out by the votes of those living but not working in the UK - the unemployed and the retired.