Two Threads culled in two days

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Psamathe
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Psamathe » 7 Dec 2016, 3:23pm

Bez wrote:...
As a very frequent user of social media—forums and otherwise—I certainly feel less and less inclined to visit this forum over time, thanks to the content of The Tea Shop. Naturally I don't have the analytics, but if it's driving me away then I have to wonder how it plays out with people who aren't cycling-obsessed, Internet-addicted white British males.

And that is probably the question that is most pressing for the organisation whose name and logo sit above every opinion expressed on every topic of discussion on this site.

I think it can work both ways. I've seen forums where everything not directly related to the operators domain is banned and they become very dull places - there are only so many different ways to ask if disk or "V" brakes are better, etc. I think that non directly related cycling threads keep many visiting and keep the forum a lively active place.

Most not interested in any particular forum area ignore it, just like reports on things I'm not interested in in e.g. the Guardian don't stop me reading any of their reports. I don't expect the Guardian to stop reporting football, I gust ignore those reports.

Ian

Ruadh495
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Ruadh495 » 7 Dec 2016, 3:41pm

Personally I quite like the political discussion on here. It's not an echo chamber. In this modern age of ours we have less to do with our geographical neighbours and more to do with those with whom we share common interests. If those interests are political we will tend only to communicate with those of similar political views (That's not good, IMO). Here, where the thing we have in common is cycling, we get a spectrum of opinion.

tyreon
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby tyreon » 7 Dec 2016, 3:52pm

I well remember the olde teashops of yore wherein everyone was respectable and conversation moderated. No talk about...well,almost anything really :(

Morning Harry.
Morning Sid.
Talking stops. 2 hours pass. A clock ticks. Munching begins. More silence. A chainset is mentioned.
More silence.
If it was a talkative day the price of milk was talked about....for 1 minute
Then silence

I think it woz those good olde days wherein I used to think about going out to a motorway and throwing myself under a lorry. That or come back to my garage to put my head in a vice to tighten! Happy days...

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Heltor Chasca
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Heltor Chasca » 7 Dec 2016, 4:05pm

As usual Bez puts across the points well. I couldn't put it any better. There are some decent folks on here and it's a shame people are being put off by a small minority. Sure they are allowed their point of view despite the fact those views are extreme, however their delivery is often crass, without wisdom and points seem to be 'won' by sniping.

For me it is juvenile and now boring. I have frequented the forum far less recently. I said this in another post.

It doesn't matter how I dress it up. I am an immigrant which not everyone stomachs easily. For me, that's an advantage: I have seen more of life's vagaries than most people in my current community and I bet more than the most vociferous and closed minded individuals who are spoiling things on here. Empty vessels make the loudest noise.

I hope the mods can work something out. It is a shame they have ended up with all the work. My sympathy goes out to them.

It is interesting that the boundaries on YACF are far broader (profanities etc) and yet there is very little in the way of problems. I'm at a loss as to why this is. Bad apple syndrome?

Psamathe
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Psamathe » 7 Dec 2016, 4:22pm

Heltor Chasca wrote:....
I hope the mods can work something out. It is a shame they have ended up with all the work. My sympathy goes out to them.

It is interesting that the boundaries on YACF are far broader (profanities etc) and yet there is very little in the way of problems. I'm at a loss as to why this is. Bad apple syndrome?

I think there are very few problems here. Ok, every couple of months somebody starts a "too many ..." thread because they don't like people expressing views on things they are not interested in discussing. Easier for them to just ignore threads they are not interested in. There are sections of this forum I'm not interested in yet I don't keep starting "should be close down the <xxx> forum section" - I just don't read those posts (not too difficult).

Mods seem generally happy about the workload from the more politically oriented threads - maybe because in the internet age people here seem very prepared to discuss issues they have strong feelings about in a generally calm moderate manner, even with people whose opinions contrast strongly with their own views. It is a mostly very polite forum/discussion.

Bad manners/insults are rare and even cycling based threads have suffered (remember the "skewers" thread!!).

But I suspect we might need a separate forum section for the "Should be ban/move/limit/exclude ..." threads that seem to keep appearing invariably coming to the same conclusion until they reappear a month later and arrive at the same conclusion.

And if somebody made an insulting post on a thread then that is one post in a thread, hardly reason to ban/exclude/annex all threads on the subject. And many local sports/activity clubs seem to have a lot more "bitching" going on (about other club members, other clubs, etc.).

Mostly polite discussion on important subjects from people with differing views, people communicating in a reasonable manner ... is that really something that needs to be stopped ?

Ian

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meic
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby meic » 7 Dec 2016, 4:45pm

who aren't cycling-obsessed, Internet-addicted white British males.
That is an accusation that can always be pointed at the CUK as a whole in any of its on-line activities.

It is a cycling forum, so it attracts cyclists, it is on-line so it is populated by on-line people.
It is Cycling UK, so it is mostly British and cyclists are mostly male.

However people would be jumping to conclusions in assuming any particular poster fits those criteria and regulars here will know that many contributors to the threads do not fit that profile.
The idea that a person should not speak up in their own tea room because they are in the majority of the club's demographic, is that to give a wrong impression about what sort of people are interested in riding cycles and talking about cycling in and out of the CUK.

Keep those embarrassing old white British men with their beards and sandals in the backroom out of sight please.
Yma o Hyd

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Si
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Si » 7 Dec 2016, 5:05pm

There are some decent folks on here and it's a shame people are being put off by a small minority. Sure they are allowed their point of view despite the fact those views are extreme, however their delivery is often crass, without wisdom and points seem to be 'won' by sniping.



I would say that there are lots of decent folk on here but I generally agree with your comments. I've nothing against political discussion but it needs to be conducted in a respectful, polite way. After all, what's the point of being rude to someone that you don't agree with - being rude is hardly going to persuade them of your views and it just demonstrates to everyone else that you have so little faith in your POV that it can't stand on the facts alone.

Of course, we all come across statements that we find so abhorrent that we feel we must challenge ....and every now and then something that seems so ridiculous to us is posted that it's understandable that we might have a strong reaction to it. But for healthy debate to continue we need to make sure that that reaction is not an invitation to lower the discussion to the level of a play ground spat. This isn't just a case of not being overtly rude, but also of going out of our ways not to be sarcastic or dismissing others' views out of hand without any kind of explanation, as either of these approaches just lead to the other person replying in kind and the debate spiralling down.

We also seem to be getting a lot of threads that have a Sun, Mail, <insert the rag of your choice> type shock headline title, a few semi-out of context quotes in the body and a link to another site. These threads do seem to be dividing opinion as to whether they are invitations for discussion on serious issues that concern us all, or are they are exercises in lighting the blue touch paper and retreating while the fireworks start. I'm perfectly willing to believe that these threads are started with the former intent, but the way that they present the question doesn't help them progress that much.

............ I have frequented the forum far less recently.


Yes, know the feeling.....some of us signed up to staff a cycling forum not to chair a particularly boisterous edition of Question Time. Goes without saying that there is always going to be the odd set-to regarding h*lm*ts, uni-pannierists, Alu vs steel, head phones, etc.......but when the moderation staff of a cycling forum spend most of their time moderating political threads you've got to wonder if something isn't right?

There was another well known forum that tried to solve the problem by creating a Room 101 section. Any heated thread was not moderated, it was just moved to this section where the combatants could continue to knock seven bells out of each other. Alas it failed as so many people posted with the intent of trying to get moved to 101. But at least if we did have a politics forum it would be less likely to lure in the passing trade! There do seem to be a number of people who don't realise that we have a Camping sub section, a h*lm*t subsection, etc.

If we had a politics section I would suggest that the rules state that any post, thread or poster may be removed at the moderator's discretion without any reason or warning and that there would be no recourse to complain about this. That way the moderators would have more time to concentrate on the cycle-related threads and pop in warnings before those get modded, to pull out individual offensive posts rather than binning whole threads, and to discuss with people why moderation has taken place, etc.....something we find we have less and less time and inclination to do now because of all the politics threads.

Psamathe
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Psamathe » 7 Dec 2016, 5:20pm

Si wrote:...
If we had a politics section I would suggest that the rules state that any post, thread or poster may be removed at the moderator's discretion without any reason or warning and that there would be no recourse to complain about this. That way the moderators would have more time to concentrate on the cycle-related threads and pop in warnings before those get modded, to pull out individual offensive posts rather than binning whole threads, and to discuss with people why moderation has taken place, etc.....something we find we have less and less time and inclination to do now because of all the politics threads.

Or just say that about any threads in any section of the forum.

If somebody joins and participates on a forum your posting sort of assumes you accept the rules and moderation of the forum. So on that basis it would be quite reasonable for any posts/threads to be removed without explanation. You could also add that "And 'where is my thread/post' threads will be removed without explanation". You may or may not accept private correspondence with individuals whose threads/posts have been removed (either would be quite reasonable).

Or, maybe rather than deleting an entire thread, just delete every post and replace with a post "Thread/posts did not comply with forum rules" (and lock it). Again quite reasonable.

Only works on a forum where the moderation is fair. So does not work on Guardian where "moderators" tend to delete out a lot of reasonable postings that point out failures/omissions/errors in the article but happily accept ludicrous posts disagreeing with other posters; and then they get round to restoring the critical removed posts 3 days later after all interest in the discussion has passed. But this is not a problem this forum suffers from.

Ian

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Si
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Si » 7 Dec 2016, 5:27pm

I think according to the forum rules that people sign up to, the mods probably can zap any post they feel like without explanation. But I also think that the forum is a happier place if the mods can explain or discuss moderation with the other members, and I much prefer to do things this way.....when I have the time....which is the issue at the mo.

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661-Pete
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby 661-Pete » 7 Dec 2016, 6:05pm

Heltor Chasca wrote:It is interesting that the boundaries on YACF are far broader (profanities etc) and yet there is very little in the way of problems. I'm at a loss as to why this is. Bad apple syndrome?

Well, I'm happier that someone else mentioned YACF before I did!

I have 'history' with them but I won't go into that - it would bore everyone else to tears! I think their "The Pub" - equivalent of our "Tea Shop" - is excruciatingly bland and inconsequential - hardly anyone ever starts a new thread, most of the activity seems to consist of appending more and more new meaningless, lobotomised posts to interminable stuff like "Tune Association" and "The Grumble Thread".

Do we want that here? Would that happen if we hived off Politics here? My feeling is, No. Even if we filter out all the political stuff from the Tea Shop, there are plenty of stimulating threads, many on new topics, to hold one's attention. Of course there is also stuff which any one person will not be interested in. No-one's asking you to read the lot. And plenty of topic drift. Do others have a problem with that? I do not: at least not in the Tea Shop. On the cycling-specific sections on the other hand, I would report anything that strays too far off-topic, if I feel it is deleterious to the thread as a whole. I guess others would too.

Back to YACF and turn to their Politics section, visible only to members. Here, too, I get the feeling there's far less mud-slinging and ad hominem than here on CUK. But that could be because I haven't read all their stuff (who'd want to?). Also, I strongly suspect that they ruthlessly cull out any 'interlopers' with pronounced right-wing tendencies*. Hence their soapboxers are mostly preaching to the converted. The last thing I want to happen here!

On the plus side, with YACF there are good, themed but non-cycling sections like Food and Drink and Arts and Entertainment. Perhaps something to consider for here?

*That wasn't the reason I got pumped out of good old YACF, in case anyone's wondering!
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

Psamathe
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Psamathe » 7 Dec 2016, 7:33pm

661-Pete wrote:...I think their "The Pub" - equivalent of our "Tea Shop" - is excruciatingly bland and inconsequential - hardly anyone ever starts a new thread, most of the activity seems to consist of appending more and more new meaningless, lobotomised posts to interminable stuff like "Tune Association" and "The Grumble Thread".

Do we want that here? Would that happen if we hived off Politics here? My feeling is, No. Even if we filter out all the political stuff from the Tea Shop, there are plenty of stimulating threads, many on new topics, to hold one's attention....

I don't agree with you.

But I do think that in the interests of balance in the forum there do need to be fewer of the political/current events threads. It is now a regular occurrence where somebody reads the online news and then we get a brief question and a link to some news story (something people could read on their own if they wanted to) - not so much that news stories of interest should not be posted just that there are so many of them all the time.

Solution: Maybe a "News story of the Day" thread a bit like the "Three word Story" (or whatever it is called). Major events that impact us (e.g. Brexit, elections, etc.) would warrant their own threads, but there are just so many posting little more than a "News Story of the Day" - son one thread that people add to as they want with new stories, etc. That would significantly reduce the number of threads in the Tea Shop making it much easier for people not interested to ignore it (like others ignore the "Three Word Story" without complaining about it every few weeks!).

And if in the view of any moderator a new current affairs thread is started that does not warrant its own thread then they just move it en-mass to the "News Story of the Day" thread (without debate/discussion/notification - anybody posting there on the understanding that's the way it works). And when the thread gets too long, it just gets deleted and a replacement created. Details really for moderators to decide to make their lives easier but lumping more of the less significant current affairs threads under one thread would dramatically reduce the forum being swamped by non-cycling threads (and easy to ignore).

Ian

thirdcrank
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Dec 2016, 7:58pm

If any thread will be trashed as a result of somebody being offensive, it's an easy route to getting a thread trashed. A bit more subtle is to taunt somebody else with less of a way with words to post in blunt terms.

Without wanting to add to the workload, perhaps there's a way of chopping the end off a deteriorating thread and allowing everybody else to get it back on course. :idea: Perhaps a few short-term bans might not be amiss for rudeness. :idea:

I'll offer a couple of options to those who feel generally unhappy about certain types of threads and perhaps certain forum members. Ignore what you don't like. If that leaves nothing to your liking, start a thread about something that interests you and if it interests others, it will get going. If it doesn't, that may tell you something. Does anybody really think they are entitled to expect others to start threads to suit their own preferences? It sometimes seems that that is the case.

Psamathe
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Psamathe » 7 Dec 2016, 8:02pm

thirdcrank wrote:...I'll offer a couple of options to those who feel generally unhappy about certain types of threads and perhaps certain forum members. Ignore what you don't like. If that leaves nothing to your liking, start a thread about something that interests you and if it interests others, it will get going. If it doesn't, that may tell you something. Does anybody really think they are entitled to expect others to start threads to suit their own preferences? It sometimes seems that that is the case.

I would agree. I have no interest in the "Three Word Story" (which I expect is not cycling related) so I ignore it and don't start threads to complain about it. I quite happy that others enjoy it and it encourages others to visit the forum (where they will read and post to other threads as well).

Ian

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meic
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby meic » 7 Dec 2016, 8:10pm

I dont believe that the Three Word Story thread gives the Moderators much cause to have to waste their valuable time (except of course if they actually get sucked into playing it for a while themselves).

We can ignore what we are not interested in but they have to trawl through it all.
That is one bit that bothers me about any contentious political threads.
Yma o Hyd

thirdcrank
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Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Dec 2016, 9:07pm

meic wrote: ... We can ignore what we are not interested in but they have to trawl through it all.
That is one bit that bothers me about any contentious political threads.


Anybody who doesn't like the way the tone of a thread is going can easily press the button to report the thread. If they prefer to retaliate, they are inviting a ban.