Two Threads culled in two days

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Norman H
Posts: 913
Joined: 31 Jul 2011, 4:39pm

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Norman H » 8 Dec 2016, 8:58am

There's no easy answer to this. The problem is one of balance but also of content. Of late the tea shop has become dominated by such posts, some of which seem to use deliberately provocative titles and gratuitously inflammatory language. It's all very well claiming that people can choose not to read it but if instead they choose to depart, we are on the slippery slope to the sort of tea shop that few would want to enter.

Bez
Posts: 1217
Joined: 10 Feb 2015, 10:41am
Contact:

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Bez » 8 Dec 2016, 9:15am

pete75 wrote:You're wrong, of course, it is a right.


Rights and privileges and responsibilities are just social constructs, there are no absolutes. They're things that are defined moral codes of varying sorts—including legislation, religious texts, and so on. Getting bogged down in the semantics of whether something is a right or a privilege, or whether there's even a difference between the two, is utterly futile. The facts of the matter are that humans respond to other humans and that humans organise themselves so as to do so in groups. Some people live in a society where much can be said without serious personal consequence; others live in societies where that is less true. It's perfectly possible for a society, or any other organisational entity, or any individual to move along that range of reaction to speech, and I think that was roughly 661-Pete's point.

thirdcrank
Posts: 29034
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby thirdcrank » 8 Dec 2016, 9:24am

Just like the moderators, posters are volunteers and are only going to post about things that attract them. Banning subjects or themes will reduce the amount of content, with little guarantee or even expectation that something else will flourish.

The only thing that regularly irritates me - and a search of my numerous posts may reveal I'm as guilty as anybody - is a clickbait (a term I've only recently discovered) thread title and an OP consisting of an unexplained link ie a sort of double clickbait. Too lazy to follow such links, I generally wait a few posts to see what it's about before deciding if it's worth the effort.

Beyond that, I fancy the problem is tone rather than content and that's not restricted to politics or the tea shop. There are plenty of posts on things like campaigning which don't mince words. I presume some people don't appreciate how aggressive their stuff seems.

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby meic » 8 Dec 2016, 9:25am

It was a right that was fought for and won by our ancestors.

Then recently casually handed back.
Yma o Hyd

tanglewood
Posts: 138
Joined: 14 Jan 2011, 7:14pm

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby tanglewood » 8 Dec 2016, 9:30am

A healthy society will moderate itself, and won't forums self-correct their tone through a combination of social nudges and Darwinism?


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels

Bez
Posts: 1217
Joined: 10 Feb 2015, 10:41am
Contact:

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Bez » 8 Dec 2016, 10:02am

I've not visited any gaming forums, but from what I hear of some of them they are good evidence that it is quite misguided to assume that a society is healthy or that a forum will self-adjust to some sort of absolutist moral code. Some places just become meeting places for people with what many of us would see as deeply unpleasant views.

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 9802
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby 661-Pete » 8 Dec 2016, 10:13am

Freedom of speech? I first felt the need to question that 'absolute', when I learnt of one Mr Enoch Powell delivering a certain speech on 20 April 1968 (is that date just a sinister coincidence I wonder?). Contrary to popular belief, he never actually uttered the words "Rivers of blood": what he actually said was "Like the Roman, I seem to see the River Tiber foaming with much blood". Nevertheless, he was deemed to have so far stepped across a line, that Edward Heath (no sandal-wearing socialist, he!) sacked him from the shadow cabinet on the spot.

It's because there are lines that simply cannot be crossed, that I maintain that Freedom of Speech is a hard-earned privilege.

There is the well-known saying, originally part of a nursery rhyme so it seems:
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

I don't go along with that, I'm afraid. I have plenty of experience in my life, to the contrary. Some of it personal and still upsetting.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

Psamathe
Posts: 11384
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Psamathe » 8 Dec 2016, 10:24am

661-Pete wrote:Freedom of speech? I first felt the need to question that 'absolute', when I learnt of one Mr Enoch Powell delivering a certain speech on 20 April 1968 (is that date just a sinister coincidence I wonder?). Contrary to popular belief, he never actually uttered the words "Rivers of blood": what he actually said was "Like the Roman, I seem to see the River Tiber foaming with much blood". Nevertheless, he was deemed to have so far stepped across a line, that Edward Heath (no sandal-wearing socialist, he!) sacked him from the shadow cabinet on the spot.

It's because there are lines that simply cannot be crossed, that I maintain that Freedom of Speech is a hard-earned privilege.

There is the well-known saying, originally part of a nursery rhyme so it seems:
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

I don't go along with that, I'm afraid. I have plenty of experience in my life, to the contrary. Some of it personal and still upsetting.

Do you really think this forum has "crossed the line" where Freedom of Speech has been abused and people are posting such bad hateful stuff that the entire discussion should be banned ? I've not seen it but if any posters were at that point I''d expect them to have been banned by now (and if it is the problem a few are suggesting then I'm surprised I've not noticed it).

In life there are not hard lines between ideas. Brexit (on the minds of many) will probably have a massive impact on cycling and even maybe cycle touring. Should the economy slow do you think the politicians will cut vote wining child care budgets or the unpopular cycle infrastructure funding (or even e.g. CTC grants)? When the UK is no longer part of the EU do people think it will get easier/cheaper to visit the EU (consider cycle regs, visas, charges, health cover, etc.).

Ian

User avatar
Heltor Chasca
Posts: 3016
Joined: 30 Aug 2014, 8:18pm
Location: Near Bath & The Mendips in Somerset

Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Heltor Chasca » 8 Dec 2016, 10:33am

tanglewood wrote:A healthy society will moderate itself, and won't forums self-correct their tone through a combination of social nudges and Darwinism?


Flushed down the thunderbox : my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels


I like this and suspect this is why YACF is pretty easy going. Lots of older white folk on that forum so *that demographic isn't the problem

I find this forum a fantastic resource. A couple of years ago, it kept me buoyant during a very dark period in my life. For that I am grateful. That's down to the people on here, so pats on backs all round.

I also never forget it is FREE resource and the mods are volunteers. So forgive me when I roll my eyes, when someone moans their threads have been moderated or deleted without notification. Delusions of grandeur methinks.

I completely understand there isn't enough time to notify individuals or explain. Break the rules and take the consequences. Simple. It's happened to me and I take it on the chin. I'm learning better decorum.

*My suggestion is that certain individuals can choose to PAY for the privilege of being a vociferous, surly and ill-mannered member. They will have to contribute towards wages for the mods. Then, when threads are deleted, they will receive a posh email notification and an option for it to be sent by post. Seems fair.





*Usual sarcasm disclaimers apply.

Psamathe
Posts: 11384
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Psamathe » 8 Dec 2016, 10:40am

Heltor Chasca wrote:...
I also never forget it is FREE resource and the mods are volunteers. So forgive me when I roll my eyes, when someone moans their threads have been moderated or deleted without notification. Delusions of grandeur methinks.....

+1

Ian

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 9802
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby 661-Pete » 8 Dec 2016, 1:25pm

Psamathe wrote:Do you really think this forum has "crossed the line" where Freedom of Speech has been abused and people are posting such bad hateful stuff that the entire discussion should be banned ?
No I don't think so - not in this forum at any rate, not yet. Hopefully it won't come to that. But the Mods have been kept unusually busy, so it seems, these past few days. I'm certain I've missed some stuff because the Mods got in before I saw it. And I believe certain individuals have been suspended or banned in recent weeks (I only know of one, for sure).

I've seen far worse in Other Places of course. I won't go into detail.

There have also been a number of cases where a single person has repeated the point they're trying to make, over and over again. Whilst one instance of their posts is not objectionable, does this repetitive behaviour amount to trolling?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

Psamathe
Posts: 11384
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Psamathe » 8 Dec 2016, 1:28pm

661-Pete wrote:...
There have also been a number of cases where a single person has repeated the point they're trying to make, over and over again. Whilst one instance of their posts is not objectionable, does this repetitive behaviour amount to trolling?

Probably me as I find many threads discussing the same thing confusing and I can't always remember if a point I raised was in the thread being posted to or one of the (many) others on the same subject.

Not having all these multiple threads discussing the same thing would dramatically reduce the prominence of such discussions in the "Active Topics" view (but I'm probably repeating myself yet again).

Ian

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 9802
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby 661-Pete » 8 Dec 2016, 2:03pm

Psamathe wrote:Probably me....
Certainly not you! :D If it's not embarrassing you to say this, I find your posts more thoughtful and well-delivered than some folks'.

And we all get a bit forgetful and repetitive, as we get older... :? I think I can tell the difference, between that and deliberate .... (sorry can't think of another word) ..... trolling.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6835
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Tangled Metal » 8 Dec 2016, 9:49pm

Would a page limit on threads be a good idea? IME politics/current affairs threads go on so long and become repetitive or just an argument between a handful of people trying to score points off each other by selectively quoting / deliberately misunderstanding the other side's arguments.

If it was clear that threads of a political or current affairs nature would last say 10 or 20 pages then get locked it might take some of the problems away. These are the taking over of the "new threads" search option that a lot use. Also the descent into opposing arguments dancing around each other towards offence. Plus other issues.

Then you just have to worry about how much freedom of speech or not causing offence should be traded off each other. How much offence are you going to allow before mods step in?

Psamathe
Posts: 11384
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Two Threads culled in two days

Postby Psamathe » 8 Dec 2016, 9:57pm

Tangled Metal wrote:...
If it was clear that threads of a political or current affairs nature would last say 10 or 20 pages then get locked...

Or set a time limit.

Or deleted. I regard aspects of a forum as being something of a reference - when knowledgeable people spend their time explaining difficult things it is about more than answering for the individual poster but through "Search" it allows others to learn and use the answer to save re-asking.

But the current affairs threads are about exchange of ideas so their value is lost once the discussion is over. And deleting them helps keep the numbers down and avoid swamping the Tea Shop.

But such manual intervention would put extra workload on the moderators - so they'd have to be happy about that.

Ian