Julian Assange? Who's that?

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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

thirdcrank wrote:..
re Peter Sutcliffe: Having been posted to Dewsbury Police Station not long after Peter Sutcliffe was finally discovered to be a murderer, I can tell you that almost everything came about more by eventual good luck than good management. This is one of those cases where I'm reluctant to say much, even though it's all well beyond my own 30 year rule. Police spokesmen have been keeping open minds ever since. .. :


In Germany many cases are solved by "Kommissar Zufall", Constable Coincidence, looks like he helped to get Sutcliffe too. I for one would like to read more of your memories, was it really like the Yorkshire depicted by David Peace?
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by bovlomov »

Cyril Haearn wrote:...was it really like the Yorkshire depicted by David Peace?

And relation to Charlie Peace?
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

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bovlomov wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:...was it really like the Yorkshire depicted by David Peace?

And relation to Charlie Peace?


Not heard of CP. DP wrote some rather violent novels set in Yorkshire: "reads like it was written by a man with one hand down his pants and the other on a shotgun" - Independent on Sunday
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bovlomov
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by bovlomov »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:...was it really like the Yorkshire depicted by David Peace?

And relation to Charlie Peace?


Not heard of CP. DP wrote some rather violent novels set in Yorkshire: "reads like it was written by a man with one hand down his pants and the other on a shotgun" - Independent on Sunday

Charles Frederick Peace (14 May 1832 – 25 February 1879) was an English burglar and murderer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Peace
thirdcrank
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

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I'll have to pass on David Peace, whose name I had to google. :oops:

Briefly, the first problem was that these were random killings in the sense that there was no link eg of the domestic violence type between killer and victims or obvious motive eg robbery. In the early days, I'm not even sure they were linked as a series. Then, the senior investigating officer was deceived by the geordie voice tapes. That's when the closed-mind effect began. Eliminating suspects properly is a bit like turning a key in a lock and looking for a match. Eg, if you know for certain your suspect is a man, women can be eliminated, but in this case, the misplaced faith placed in in the tapes meant that suspects, and specifically Peter Sutcliffe were wrongly eliminated for not having the "right" accent. It's easy to forget that in those days there was no suitable computer system for the vast amounts of information that were being generated and the enquiry was swamped with information in card indexes etc. That served to increase the wish to eliminate suspects quickly. My own - incorrect - pet theory was that it might be a taxi driver, ie somebody who women might largely trust, but I always assumed that if chance had led me to the killer, he'd have been a geordie, because that was what we were told. We were wrongly told that the tapes contained unpublished information about one of the murders but it was eventually found that the info had been in a Manchester paper, where one of the murders had occurred. A change of senior investigating officer came too late. The arrest in South Yorkshire was hardly proficient, in that concealed weapons were not found (apart from anything else, that type of thing can lead to assaults on other officers while the suspect is in custody) and I suspect there was general relief when a reason was found to get Dewsbury to collect him. During the journey back, one of the escorting officers, somebody I know personally like a lot of those involved, sensed that Sutcliffe was a tad more agitated than being arrested for dodgy reg plates might merit and reported his concerns. The detective inspector - who was on the same recruit course as me years earlier - got to the bottom of it all quite quickly. I don't think I'm revealing anything by noting that one of the hard parts was convincing the incident room that the previous eliminations of this suspect had been wrong. IIRC, Among the things to emerge was that the quite realistic image of Sutcliffe given by a surviving victim to a photofit operator was discounted because she described her attacker as having a local accent.

This understandably led to policy changes such as reviews of cases by somebody not involved and investigating officers are always keen to announce they are keeping an open mind.

That's all pretty general and I don't think I've revealed any secrets: I don't actually know any, but if I did, I'd keep quiet.

PS Charlie Peace was before my time :wink: but sometimes the subject of the dreaded canteen humour.
PPS bovlomov: as our own forum undercover person - as shown in your avatar - haven't you any view on the current events being discussed, rather than somebody born when peelers were peelers?
Psamathe
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote:psamathe

I can't quote an official US spokesman of this administration or the last, but they've expressed no interest and if there had been judicial proceedings I think we'd have heard, officially or otherwise by now. BTW, your poodle point supports what I'm saying and they do say it was Blair who signed the treaty on our behalf, when everybody knew that the US wouldn't ratify it for extraditions in the other direction.
.....

Grand Juries can and do Indictment under seal - basically to keep the indictment from public knowledge, aim being not to tell the person you are after that you are after them thereby making it more likely you will be able to catch them. If a US Grand Jury had indicted Assange it would be of no benefit to make it public and would certainly better serve their purposes the issue a Sealed Indictment (i.e. "Sealed Indictment. The magistrate judge to whom an indictment is returned may direct that the indictment be kept secret until the defendant is in custody ... The clerk must then seal the indictment, and no person may disclose the indictment's existence except as necessary to issue or execute a warrant or summons.") in which case we would certainly not know of their decision. And I can certainly imagine the were Assange to be aware of any indictment then it might easily change what he might be prepared to do or not do.

And as I said, if they were wanting to extradite him, starting extradition when there was an earlier extradition request pending would complicate everything - far more sensible to wait until Sweden gets him extradited or drops their extradition request - then the US could start extradition proceedings immediately with whatever country he was in at the time. And Sweden definitely got in their request before any Grand Jury would have been ready to start any extradition requests.

thirdcrank wrote:psamathe
...As I posted above one of his main demands (release of Bradley Manning) is on the point of happening, without any obvious reference to those demands. Wouldn't that have been another cunning plan to get him? In fact, they seem to have attached no strings which must make him feel a bit silly.
.....

I agree that it will be interesting to see what happens once Manning is released given what Assange has said he will do should that happen. But I don't see it as a cunning plan to get Assange as it was Obama who initiated Manning's release but Trump who would in effect take the credit for "capturing" Assange (I can't see Obama handing Trump/Republicans such a PR opportunity).

Ian
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

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Psamathe wrote: ... I agree that it will be interesting to see what happens once Manning is released given what Assange has said he will do should that happen. But I don't see it as a cunning plan to get Assange as it was Obama who initiated Manning's release but Trump who would in effect take the credit for "capturing" Assange (I can't see Obama handing Trump/Republicans such a PR opportunity). ...


But my point is that it's not a plan, cunning or otherwise to get him. On the contrary, I'm saying that it's evidence that his self-important "offers" have been ignored. I can't see it's a coup to capture somebody you don't want. Also, somebody above suggested that Trump thinks he's a good guy, so he's presumably even less likely to want him captured (unless it's to save him from the clutches of the Swedish system, which seems to take a stronger view of some offences against women than he is reported to do.)

Then, back to video interviews. Imagine both the Swedish and UK legislatures act to allow video for anything (that's just to avoid legal pitfalls in what I'm going to say.)

1. He's interviewed in the Embassy by video link. OK. If he's cleared end of.
2. If he's not cleared, we have a trial where he appears by video link in the Swedish court. If he's acquitted end of.
3. If he's convicted by the Swedish court, then what?
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

thirdcrank wrote:I'll have to pass on David Peace, whose name I had to google. :oops:
.....
PS Charlie Peace was before my time :wink: but sometimes the subject of the dreaded canteen humour.


Interesting, thanks very much. The canteen humour AKA locker room culture, has that changed, how did female cops get on back then? I see that several forces have female chiefs now so I imagine attitudes have changed, not only in the Met, am I right?
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Psamathe
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote:
Psamathe wrote: ... I agree that it will be interesting to see what happens once Manning is released given what Assange has said he will do should that happen. But I don't see it as a cunning plan to get Assange as it was Obama who initiated Manning's release but Trump who would in effect take the credit for "capturing" Assange (I can't see Obama handing Trump/Republicans such a PR opportunity). ...


But my point is that it's not a plan, cunning or otherwise to get him. On the contrary, I'm saying that it's evidence that his self-important "offers" have been ignored. I can't see it's a coup to capture somebody you don't want. Also, somebody above suggested that Trump thinks he's a good guy, so he's presumably even less likely to want him captured (unless it's to save him from the clutches of the Swedish system, which seems to take a stronger view of some offences against women than he is reported to do.)

Then, back to video interviews. Imagine both the Swedish and UK legislatures act to allow video for anything (that's just to avoid legal pitfalls in what I'm going to say.)

1. He's interviewed in the Embassy by video link. OK. If he's cleared end of.
2. If he's not cleared, we have a trial where he appears by video link in the Swedish court. If he's acquitted end of.
3. If he's convicted by the Swedish court, then what?

I don't have all the answers (I'm no legal expert) but e.g. I understand that Swedish prosecutors have interviewed people in the same status as Assange overseas before yet this time they seemed very unprepared to do so requiring him to go to Sweden - which raised questions as to whether there was some other agenda going on (and I have no idea if one was or not but it does raise questions).

I thought that if somebody is tried and found guilty in their absence then their sentence stands waiting for them to be "captured". I suppose it would depend on what the Swedish legal system allows and how they can ensure proper defence, etc.

If the current situation continues I wonder if they would/could prosecute before the remainder of his alleged crimes reach their statute of limitations (I believe the sexual assault allegations were dropped last year when they hit the 5 year statute of limitations but the rape allegations carry a 10 year statute of limitations (so still a few years to run). I understand that it is costing the UK police quite a lot to maintain their prsence outside the Ecuadorian Embassy so they are ready to catch him ...

As far as the US, whatever Trump may want, I suspect there are powerful Republicans who are very keen to see Assange punished and would certainly want him pursued (even some Democrat - I seem to remember the Chairperson of some Senate Intelligence Committee (or similar) calling for him to be prosecuted, as well as McCain). I suspect Trump is being positive about Assange because he thinks that Wikileaks publishing Democrat e-mails helped his election campaign. But I have read that Republicans are becoming more vocal telling Trump he should be listening to his own government rather than Wikileaks and I suspect as the election becomes a more distant memory, so Trump will turn more to needing support from his party and in such matters he will either be powerless or will start to listen where things do not impact his agenda in a big way.

I do find it worrying where what Wikileaks publishes starts changing Assanges personal prospects and the attitudes of the US (e.g. Palin who originally said “He is an anti-American operative with blood on his hands....Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders?" but how is now saying "The media collusion that hid what many on the Left have been supporting is shocking. This important information that finally opened people’s eyes to democrat candidates and operatives would not have been exposed were it not for Julian Assange," (and no, I don't regard what Palin says with any great regard but she is "prominent". I'm not suggesting Wikileaks is selective publishing but it becomes a concern when a prominent figure in the organisation becomes more dependent on foreign government attitudes which are influenced by what they publish.

But I also wonder if the situation in the US with Trump is more complex as it is all tangled up with Trump finding out who will support him and who wont, with his fights against his intelligence agencies (as he does not like the idea that he had Russian help to win ...), etc. - impossible to form much of an opinion what is really going on.

Ian
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by thirdcrank »

Cyril Haearn wrote: ... The canteen humour AKA locker room culture, has that changed, how did female cops get on back then? I see that several forces have female chiefs now so I imagine attitudes have changed, not only in the Met, am I right?


Back when? I joined in 1967 when there was a separate Policewomen's Department with women supervisors. The senior woman police officer in Leeds City police then was a superintendent. Pay and conditions were different in that women worked shorter hours but for lower gross pay. (I've heard it suggested that it worked out that the hourly rate of pay for women was slightly better than for men but to all intents and purposes it was the same.) There are no enhanced pay rates for shiftwork. The main employment for policewomen was dealing with women and children. Speaking as a man, I think that one of the biggest obstacles to women staying more than a couple of years was that there was no provision for things like maternity leave, flexible hours, etc. That was by no means restricted to the police.

All that began to change in 1975 with the discrimination legislation and it came as a culture shock to a lot of people, not least some of the longer serving women who had to start learning all over again. At a time when people were leaving the police considerably faster than they were being recruited and trained, women alleviated some of that. I'd say that women who joined after 1975 had different expectations. By and large, police forces follow the rules on things like employment law to the letter and policies like maternity leave were introduced.

I refer to canteen humour with a sense of irony as a lot of it is the result of sloppy journalism.

Some years ago now, a woman in the rank of assistant chief constable complained of the glass ceiling. I'm a white male and I was stuck in the rank of inspector almost 20 years. In a pyramid hierarchy, an awful lot won't rise far. BTW, I've been retired almost 20 years so I'm by no means up-to-date.

Unless you have seen the reports before, if you want a bit of background reading about modern senior policewomen google Rebekah Sutcliffe. I'm not suggesting that's typical but it's a way of drawing a line across this.
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bovlomov
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by bovlomov »

thirdcrank wrote:PPS bovlomov: as our own forum undercover person - as shown in your avatar - haven't you any view on the current events being discussed, rather than somebody born when peelers were peelers?

Charlie Peace is an easier subject than Assange - about whom I haven't stuck my oar in because I can't think of what to say. (Hasn't stopped me before, you might say.)

Part of Assange's problem is that he is a less sympathetic character than either Snowden or Manning - and there's no way of looking at his behaviour in Sweden (even according to his own account) as anything but grubby.

In his defence, though: If the whole thing reflects badly on him, it shouldn't distract from the slightly odd behaviour of the alleged victims and Swedish officials. Also, there have been plenty of calls from within the US political class to execute him, or jail him. In view of the treatment of US whistleblowers, and the lengths the US went to in pursuit of Snowden, I don't blame him for being nervous.

I wouldn't trust Trump to protect him. In the past Trump has called for his execution, and Assange has recently denounced Trump for failing to release his tax returns.

(All comments according to various reports I've read. All or none may be true.)

Any official that doesn't like Wikileaks should look at how whistleblowers are treated within organisations. Unless you want to have your life ruined, Wikileaks may be the best option.
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by thirdcrank »

bovlomov

Thanks for the prompt and thoughtful reply. :D

Psamathe wrote: ... I thought that if somebody is tried and found guilty in their absence then their sentence stands waiting for them to be "captured". I suppose it would depend on what the Swedish legal system allows and how they can ensure proper defence, etc. ...


In England and Wales and AFAIK, the only circumstances in which somebody is routinely tried in their absence is for the relatively minor summary offences where a court has no power to enforce attendance ie otherwise, a defendant could prevent proceedings simply by never turning up. With more serious cases, it's very rare. I don't know the current rules but in general, if a defendant doesn't attend, an arrest warrant is eventually issued and the proceedings are adjourned until they are arrested. If a defendant absconds during a trial then it might proceed in their absence. The possibility of a defendant absconding is the reason a lot of defendants don't get bail. It would make the prosecution's job a lot easier if they could have a sort of walkover if the defendant didn't appear.

Speaking as somebody whose career was built on adhering to correct procedures for the benefit of all concerned, including the rights of defendants, I'm probably ill-equipped to devise ways of pandering to somebody who decides they would prefer their own set of rules. (I even use emotive language to describe the situation :lol: )

More generally, revealing national secrets on what might fashionably be called an industrial scale is a risky business, no matter what the moral standpoint of those involved. If you do it and shun the possible protection of secrecy AKA court personal publicity, then it's a risky game: not only is your identity known but you are taunting the authorities.

In this case, nothing obvious has been done by any public authority to build this up and the suspect has been left short of the personal publicity he seems to seek. Not gone, but largely forgotten.

Finally, I'm not unaware of the health problems he faces in this situation.
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote:....
More generally, revealing national secrets on what might fashionably be called an industrial scale is a risky business, no matter what the moral standpoint of those involved. If you do it and shun the possible protection of secrecy AKA court personal publicity, then it's a risky game: not only is your identity known but you are taunting the authorities.
......

I agree. You would expect somebody who identifies themselves doing such activities would have a "Plan B" or some viable route to get somewhere safe should the need arise (that is to "get safe/away" from vindictive governments NOT to escape sexual assault/rape allegations).

thirdcrank wrote:....
Finally, I'm not unaware of the health problems he faces in this situation.

There have been reports of chronic dental pain and a heart condition. I am in no position to assess the extent and truth of such reports (only repeat them).

thirdcrank wrote:....
In this case, nothing obvious has been done by any public authority to build this up and the suspect has been left short of the personal publicity he seems to seek. Not gone, but largely forgotten. .....

I find my own feelings about his position/work/character and how those feelings have changed over time interesting. Initially I was very certain it was a US plot to get him to the US and I had more sympathy for him with regard to the risks he faced from the US. However I've found that gradually I seem to be questioning his true motives more, and now wonder if his concerns are maybe more about the allegations from Sweden. Difficulty is that much of my impression has to be based on reports where there is no way to establish much in the way of fact, particularly now the big public outcry from US politicians seems to have died down.

Also, whilst I feel there is a useful place for organisations like Wikileaks I am less and less convinced about Assange in a prominent position in that role - partly because he does seem to seek out and enjoy publicity and partly because he has started to express his own political bias. He also seems to be happy making claims where I can see no way he (or anybody) can have any knowledge of the true fact (though again, difficult to know for sure exactly what distortions the press may have put on things).

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by thirdcrank »

On the health issue, I was partly thinking of the psychological effects of prolonged confinement with a completely uncertain outcome. I'm not seeking to exaggerate that, people have been on death row for years, but it doesn't make it better that somebody has it worse.

So what does the future hold? Let's imagine, for example, that the Swedish authorities find a way of ending their proceedings. Passage of time, public interest, amnesty, whatever they might call it in Sweden. Then what? On the face of it, he's free to go. But where? If it's true that the US wants to "get him" by one means or another, it's hard to imagine where he might hide and how he might get there from here. :?
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Re: Julian Assange? Who's that?

Post by meic »

Psamathe wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:....
More generally, revealing national secrets on what might fashionably be called an industrial scale is a risky business, no matter what the moral standpoint of those involved. If you do it and shun the possible protection of secrecy AKA court personal publicity, then it's a risky game: not only is your identity known but you are taunting the authorities.
......

I agree. You would expect somebody who identifies themselves doing such activities would have a "Plan B" or some viable route to get somewhere safe should the need arise (that is to "get safe/away" from vindictive governments NOT to escape sexual assault/rape allegations).

thirdcrank wrote:....
Finally, I'm not unaware of the health problems he faces in this situation.

There have been reports of chronic dental pain and a heart condition. I am in no position to assess the extent and truth of such reports (only repeat them).

thirdcrank wrote:....
In this case, nothing obvious has been done by any public authority to build this up and the suspect has been left short of the personal publicity he seems to seek. Not gone, but largely forgotten. .....

I find my own feelings about his position/work/character and how those feelings have changed over time interesting. Initially I was very certain it was a US plot to get him to the US and I had more sympathy for him with regard to the risks he faced from the US. However I've found that gradually I seem to be questioning his true motives more, and now wonder if his concerns are maybe more about the allegations from Sweden. Difficulty is that much of my impression has to be based on reports where there is no way to establish much in the way of fact, particularly now the big public outcry from US politicians seems to have died down.

Also, whilst I feel there is a useful place for organisations like Wikileaks I am less and less convinced about Assange in a prominent position in that role - partly because he does seem to seek out and enjoy publicity and partly because he has started to express his own political bias. He also seems to be happy making claims where I can see no way he (or anybody) can have any knowledge of the true fact (though again, difficult to know for sure exactly what distortions the press may have put on things).

Ian


Of course if there was a covert CIA operation to undermine wikileaks, that is exactly the sort of impression their propaganda machine would seek to create.
It is only because of wikileaks that we know the existence of such plots and the use of such tactics actually goes on. Prior to wikileaks it was the stuff of conspiracy theorists like flat earthers, lizard beings and Hillsborough police cover-ups.
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