Is getting on a stop after your train ticket start point illegal in England?

[SA_SA_SA]

Virgin apparently accused a passenger of buying a ticket starting one station and getting on
at the next stop of fraud* and had them questioned by the British Transport Police at their destination? Surely irrespective of Virgins inability to programme ticket prices doesn't make that illegal? Should the police have told them that is not fraud, stop wasting our time?
I often walked one station after my ticket start station cos I felt like a walk: would virgin call me a fraud for using less of their fuel?
The passenger was able to prove he boarded at his ticket station due to CCTV but why should he have to: he wasn't very impressed!!

*because they manage to make the longer ticket a lot cheaper: ie they caused the problem.

http://www.markmenzies.org.uk/uncategorized/mark-menzies-mp-blasts-virgin-rail-after-passenger-is-wrongly-accused-of-fraud-and-held-by-police

[Barks]

Another blatant example of bureaucracy gone mad - I regularly buy advance train tickets in the Maidenhead area and, due to domestic realities, find that it is far more convenient to board a train from a station closer to my destination than my original paid for departure location (e.g. Maidenhead to Bristol but board at Twyford). I have no idea what the price difference may be be for the ticket from Twyford Vs Maidenhead but it is completely illogical and downright disingenuous if it was more for a shorter journey. Shame on Virgin and any other train company that has any pricing policy like this - good on the MP for taking up this cause but will it result in a high level Virgin overpaid executive lose his bonus, I doubt it. If the MP can't get a sensible apology and compensation for the individual in this case then sack the MP.

[pete75]

If the MP can't get a sensible apology and compensation for the individual in this case then sack the MP.

Yeah really good way of doing things. MP makes complaint to a company on behalf of constituent. Company doesn't like that MP and/or his political party so refuse to apologise or pay compensation and MP sacked.

In any case if you read the linked article fully you'd have seen the last sentence which says "Virgin said Mr Morrissey had accepted an apology and goodwill gesture, and that it would ‘learn from the incident’." In case you were wondering goodwill gesture is a euphemism for compensation.

[SA_SA_SA]

But what law would he have been breaking if he got on a stop later: surely his his ticket covered the stations/segment he traveled through? If virgin have weird pricing thats their fault surely and no business of the police?

[geocycle]

I'm not sure it is illegal but it can be cheaper, for example tickets from Penrith or Oxenholme can be cheaper than those from Lancaster or Preston to London. Probably due to the definition of off peak. As it is a saving it is probably against the rules to get on after the starting station.

[PH]

It's known as travelling short and is against the T&C of most tickets where they are only valid between two specific points. If you get on after the original, or off before the final, you will be travelling without a valid ticket, doesn't matter what other ticket you may have.
I got caught out like this when a friend bought me a ticket from Edinburgh to Birmingham and I got off early at Derby. Originally they wanted me to pay for the entire journey, but as my ticket was still valid to Birmingham I offered to get the next train there and then buy another ticket to come back, which they agreed to. How stupid is that? In the end I was let through with a warning not to do it again.

EDIT - Man in Seat 61 disagrees with the above and I've no doubt is right, in which case the ticket inspectors in Derby had it wrong.
Under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, ticket inspectors are entitled to charge you the difference in fare between what you've paid and the cheapest walk-up ticket for the journey you've actually made.
http://www.seat61.com/UK-train-travel.htm#How to buy train tickets online

[mercalia]

some times the tickets say some thing to the effect any suitable route so then you can? or not via some particular station what then? seems suggest some choice?

[PH]

some times the tickets say some thing to the effect any suitable route so then you can? or not via some particular station what then? seems suggest some choice?

No, any permitted route means one that is acceptable under the routing guide
http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide

There are some tickets, like the expensive Anytime ones, where you can break a journey anywhere along the route, so it would be easy to travel short with one of these. Though I doubt you would save any money compared to the fare for the journey made.

[jgurney]

Another blatant example of bureaucracy gone mad -..... it is completely illogical and downright disingenuous if it was more for a shorter journey. Shame on Virgin and any other train company that has any pricing policy like this

So do you think anyone who booked a flight from Aberdeen to London should be able to turn up at Edinburgh airport instead and be able to walk onto a flight to London with the same airline using the same ticket? That is also a shorter journey.

The traveler in this case clearly had an advance purchase ticket valid on a specific train between two specific points. Such a ticket is valid for that journey only. If they wanted flexibility to get on or off at stations along the route or to use any train running that day then they should have bought a ticket which allowed that. Such tickets are available. This sounds to me like a case of someone buying the cheapest ticker then wanting the benefits that come with more expensive ones.

[whizzzz]

So do you think anyone who booked a flight from Aberdeen to London should be able to turn up at Edinburgh airport instead and be able to walk onto a flight to London with the same airline using the same ticket? That is also a shorter journey.

I dont think its really the same, as the train will be stopping at all the stops anyway and I guess and not making detours. I cant see why me getting on after the paid for stop or getting off a train early causes an issue to anyone other than the ticket machine on entry / exit.

Seems like an issue is the pricing policy, if they got that right / sensible, it wouldn't be an issue financially ( ie the further the travel the more you pay ), or put turnstiles in all at stations so the ticket has to match the station.

Is it down to just confusing the ticket inspector or just something they have to put in place to get around a loophole that was once used ?

If I was riding to a station and felt good, then I think I might ride onto the next station if time permitted and expect to use the same ticket. I dont think I would think about asking for a refund for the un-used section of my ticket, or for them to be upset by me doing it.

Funny old world...

[Stevek76]

Should the police have told them that is not fraud, stop wasting our time?

BTP are mostly funded by levies on the train companies and enforcing the byelaws of the railway is part of their job. And yes, travelling without a valid ticket is an offence under those. Travelling short/long is against the conditions of advanced tickets and certain others.

AS for the pricing structure, that's probably largely a result of the way peak fares are calculated. I can understand peak fare pricing but the way it's done on the rail is a bit daft, a slightly more modern electronic ticketing system would probably make it easier to have a rather more consistent fare structure.

[thirdcrank]

The reason why most people find this policy wrong is that they quite understandably see buying a rail ticket as buying a commodity eg a couple of hundred miles of railway travel between King's X and Leeds, so they do not see how it's wrong not to consume the whole two hundred miles by hopping off at say Donny. (I've no idea if London to Doncaster is more expensive than to Leeds and I don't really care.) Obviously, there may be certain types of journey, such as peak times, when tickets attract a premium but that's not the issue here. Ditto two hundred miles from King's X to Leeds may justify a different fare compared with 200 miles from Leeds to Edinburgh. Whatever the regulations, it's hard for a layperson to see a business reason for penalising people who get off at intermediate stations, other than a policy of discouraging the use of those stations with premium prices with a view to ultimately demonstrating that everybody wants non-stop travel between main termini.

It's hard to see a jury convicting anybody of fraud for doing this so they have to resort to penalty charges.

Overall, is just one more of the things which make rail travel not worth the hassle. Perhaps it's a cunning plan to popularise the building of more motorways.

Thinks: does the BTP have a team of detectives tracing people who buy return tickets and then don't go back?

A couple of posts while I was banging away. Yes, the BTP is what was once known as "company police."

[jgurney]

some times the tickets say some thing to the effect any suitable route so then you can? or not via some particular station what then? seems suggest some choice?

No, any permitted route means one that is acceptable under the routing guide
http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide

'Any permitted' tickets are indeed valid according to the routing guide. This generally means valid on trains meeting any of the following:
- through trains between the two points.
- fastest connection between them
- geographically shortest route.
- alternatives which would be cheaper than any of the above.

So for instance an Anytime ticket from Exeter St Davis to London Terminals could be used either on direct trains via Westbury to Paddington, or by a train to Basingstoke, change for Reading, change for Paddington, or a direct but slower train to Waterloo via Basingstoke, or by a through train which went the long way round from Exeter to Paddington via Bristol. However it could not be used to travel by way of Worcester or Portsmouth.

[Si]

I often buy a ticket, at the station counter, being from the stop before where I get on because on the return journey I want to go back to that station....they seem perfectly happy with that, despite the cost of this station to destination + ticket from destination back to station before mine being somewhat more than the single ticket. Finally - something good about LM!

[jgurney]

Overall, is just one more of the things which make rail travel not worth the hassle.

How? The TOC's are not making anyone buy advances. There is no route where other unrestricted tickets are not also offered for those who want them. By making a lot of journeys a lot cheaper* the introduction of advances has actually made rail much more worth while.

* E.g. I recently bought an advance from London to Darlington for less than the fare I used to pay 20 years ago for the same journey at the same time.

Perhaps it's a cunning plan to popularise the building of more motorways.

When I noticed the Daily Mail attacking railway companies over this a while ago, I thought exactly the opposite - that these complaints were stirred up by the road-building and car-selling lobby in the hope of getting advance fares withdrawn and so discouraging rail use by making it more expensive.

does the BTP have a team of detectives tracing people who buy return tickets and then don't go back?

There are no advance returns, only singles. Holders of unused anytime returns are entitled to claim a refund of the difference between the fare and the single fare.