** The thread for Rants & Odds and Sods **

[ChrisOntLancs]

i've always been a fan of dave chappelle, and i was really happy to find out he's done some new specials for netflix.

this brilliant news came to me from a LGBT news outlet though

still he wouldn't be the first comedian to be taken out of context. i've always been a fan of south park, and i've cried with laughter at every supposed homophobic joke on that show, so i hope it's a case of that.

and if not, "free speech". it would just suck for this to be the joke i don't find funny.

[mercalia]

I do hate people who lick their fingers while sorting papers, handling cash, working at the till. Or rather I hate the habit

How may one get them to stop it?

well you must have heard that most notes have been used in drug laundering so probably the hope is to get a small fix

[Vorpal]

I do hate people who lick their fingers while sorting papers, handling cash, working at the till. Or rather I hate the habit

How may one get them to stop it?

Tell them about http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... notes.html

[ChrisOntLancs]

those chappelle specials are hilarious.

there are a couple of awkward bits, that are more embarrassing than offensive, and still quite funny.

but mostly hilarious.

i'm gonna go try some manning... maybe political correctness has actually gone mad

[ChrisOntLancs]

"mum, i fancy cooking a lasagna, do you fancy a lasagna for mothers day?"

"oh, we better not, SO won't eat that vegetarian rubbish"

"vegetables? fair enough"

am i really whinging about my mother on the eve of mother's day? no, i'm whinging about absolutes and society's unwavering obedience to them, so i'm getting the best beef i can find, and sticking it in a lasagna, just for me.

[mercalia]

Ken Livingstone?

What do people here make of it, why he is doing it and why the Jewish community seems to be reacting as violently as they are? Make me think that the Jewish lobbyists have too much influence in the Labour party. Seem like the anti-semitic card being used too often these days. He may be presenting an over simplification of the matter but what he saying not false; could have been expressed better with qualifications. Rather puzzled at the furore. I dont think it does the Jewish community any good. The christian community over the years have had to take a lot of stick over their beliefs and way of life.

a Jewish Labour MP and former minister, who said: “Those who claim that these concerns are part of some ‘rightwing conspiracy’ against Jeremy Corbyn should be reminded that no one forced Ken Livingstone to go into a radio studio to speak about Nazi support for Zionism. They must also confront the reality that a minority who claim to be progressive seem to think that their opposition to the policies of the Israeli government entitles them to use rhetoric and imagery which is pure and simple Jew hatred"

seems ( deliberately ) over the top?

would be better for them to just simply correct Livingstone and tell us the complete truth and that would be the end of the matter? See it as an opportunity to remind us all? I certainly did a google to find some further information. Livinstone seemed to be making a small point about the early years of Hitler. A few ( non practicing ) jews I know are a bit tired at all this.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/05/growing-pressure-on-corbyn-to-sack-ken-livingstone-over-antisemitic-comments?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=220568&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

"

[ChrisOntLancs]

it's obvious labour cant carry on as it is, and its a shame!

i think it wouldn't hurt to tread a little more carefully though, alright there's a risk of giving your enemies ammo, but there's the more serious risk of actually insulting jewish people. they're not the green party, they have an actual chance to win the election, so they've got diplomacy to worry about.

the people who criticise govt over supporting isreal might even bring up saudi arabia in the same breath. it's not a jew thing it's a tyranny thing, they can be all sorts of religions, everybody knows this. if people were allowed to talk openly about it would be easier to understand the intentions behind it, wheras at the moment i'm not sure i can trust everything i read on the issue. i've been recommended a book, something about protocols and zion elders... seems legit... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP BLURRING THIS LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!1

thanks for bringing it back merc

[mercalia]

here is a good esample of the logic chopping that some have used against him

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/06/ken-livingstone-hitler-zionism-jews

reading into "supporting" a meaning that doubtfuly was ever there - The writer interprets what Livingstone said in the video as saying supporting the idea of a jewish state ie agreeing with the idea. You can support things in many ways for many reasons eg I voted Brexit because I didnt want the remainers to win by too large a margin so onlookers would say I supported Brexit? In politics you can go along with/support many things because it serves your interests, without agreeing with it? eg Our dealings with the Saudis?

I think the big mistake that Livingstone has made is that Hitler was never sane? never a nice person and he gives the impression he was?

What I dont understand is why he hasnt sort to clarify his off the cuff comments so as not to look so offensive - maybe he has gone mad? like the other old politician who suggested we might go to war to protect Gibraltar from the Spanish after Brexit ( Clark was it?)

[ChrisOntLancs]

ninja'd by merc, sorry, but it took ages to whittle this down so as it would fit on the internet!

skate park closure in atherton

people complain about kids hanging around and ripping up benches and stuff with skate boards and BMXs, but i was one of those kids and the one thing we reaaaaaaally wanted was a skatepark. when we grew up we were replaced by more 'hoodies' and one day it just stopped. all those kids disappeared. now i know why, it's because wigan council did something right. it ACTUALLY fixed the town. it used to be horrible here, now it's quite nice.

we weren't menacing kids, we were loud, but never aggressive, and i assume the same of the kids we see today. they just haven't thought things out, they're kids, they shouldn't have to worry about that moral dilemma, the cost of one's existence

[ChrisOntLancs]

morning!

that whole 'i decide what you're trying to say' stuff is just the way things are now, for as long as i can remember actually.

people who criticise isreal have to tread carefully though. if not for their opponents, of what they're reading. i sympathise with palestine, but i cant pretend that my side of the argument isn't heavily influenced by the far right. it's like a middle class islamophobia and they should know better (not just talking of livingstone here). i do think all this could be avoided by refining the attack, and i'd say the same thing to outsider criticism of islam.

my rant...

noooo though, just pretend you don't know who ant and dec are, make sure everybody hears the absent 'h' in issue, and wait for us all to get as clever as you so you can finally get on with your amazing work (jeremy corbyn is a better caricature of the academic left, so can we pretend it's a few months ago when he was getting accused of it)

[pwa]

Ken Livingstone?

What do people here make of it, why he is doing it and why the Jewish community seems to be reacting as violently as they are? Make me think that the Jewish lobbyists have too much influence in the Labour party. Seem like the anti-semitic card being used too often these days. He may be presenting an over simplification of the matter but what he saying not false; could have been expressed better with qualifications. Rather puzzled at the furore. I dont think it does the Jewish community any good. The christian community over the years have had to take a lot of stick over their beliefs and way of life.

a Jewish Labour MP and former minister, who said: “Those who claim that these concerns are part of some ‘rightwing conspiracy’ against Jeremy Corbyn should be reminded that no one forced Ken Livingstone to go into a radio studio to speak about Nazi support for Zionism. They must also confront the reality that a minority who claim to be progressive seem to think that their opposition to the policies of the Israeli government entitles them to use rhetoric and imagery which is pure and simple Jew hatred"

seems ( deliberately ) over the top?

would be better for them to just simply correct Livingstone and tell us the complete truth and that would be the end of the matter? See it as an opportunity to remind us all? I certainly did a google to find some further information. Livinstone seemed to be making a small point about the early years of Hitler. A few ( non practicing ) jews I know are a bit tired at all this.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/05/growing-pressure-on-corbyn-to-sack-ken-livingstone-over-antisemitic-comments?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=220568&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

"

This confuses me. The remark I have heard quoted, stating that Hitler was, for a while, in favour of Zionism and its aim of a separate state for Jews, seems okay if it is true. Is it true? I can see how Hitler might have seen it as a practical solution to what he (not Ken and certainly not me or you) saw as the problem of Jews in Germany. Ken also mentioned the Holocaust as a historical fact, so no holocaust denying nonsense there. I don't see a hint of antisemitism there. I don't like Ken's politics but I never had him down as a racist of any sort.

[Ben@Forest]

This confuses me. The remark I have heard quoted, stating that Hitler was, for a while, in favour of Zionism and its aim of a separate state for Jews, seems okay if it is true. Is it true? I can see how Hitler might have seen it as a practical solution to what he (not Ken and certainly not me or you) saw as the problem of Jews in Germany. Ken also mentioned the Holocaust as a historical fact, so no holocaust denying nonsense there. I don't see a hint of antisemitism there. I don't like Ken's politics but I never had him down as a racist of any sort.

It is not true. This from David Baddiel in the Guardian is a good riposte:

The statement “Hitler supported Zionism” is not a fact. It’s an interpretation. An interpretation of a particular historical moment, in the 1930s, when the forced emigration of Jews from Germany was pushed further along by various Nazi economic incentives allowing those who fled to Palestine to get some of their stolen assets back.

The Nazis had various ideas to try and get Jews out of Germany - or 'judenrein' as they would have said. It included the idea of sending all Jews to Madagascar (1. It was a French colony at the time. 2. What about the indigenous population? 3. Why would all Jews want to go there?). It was evidently a ridiculous suggestion - would you call it Zionism?

The Nazis really only had free rein to exterminate the Jews following their invasion of Poland in 1939 and their initial massive successes after the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Suddenly they had control of large, and sometimes anonymous, tracts of land where Jews (and other ethnic groups) could be exterminated a long way from Germany and any reliable oversight. All German-run extermination camps were in what is now Poland. Concentration camps were more widely spread - including one in France.

The Nazis had no interest in a homeland for the Jews, during peacetime and under the eyes of the world, then trying to get Jews out of Germany by allowing passage to Palestine (for a large economic price) was an expedient method. Once under the fog of war and with the space to do it the Final Solution was implemented.

[mercalia]

Ben@Forest clearly didnt read what I said about the slippery nature of the word "supported" when especially applied to the politcal arena - Support doesnt mean necessarily agree with but willing to go along with it as it serves your interests. Hitler supported any thing that would remove the Jews from Germany? I gave a personal example of how I voted for Brexit not becuase I wanted to leave the EU but because like many assumed it wouldnt be happening and didnt want the remainers to win by a large margin, in order to send a message to Brussels. That Guardian article makes the same mistake because the writer already has a anti Livingstone bias and interpets Support in a way favourable to that bias? If the video is what we go by Livingstones remarks were very much off the cuff and brief and he should have elaborated them? But since he has been attacked by all and sundry and by a vociferous jewish lobby cant blame the guy for digging in his heels, human nature, though I suspect he likes being in the lime light again?

Here is an interesting Specator article that may be worth reading

"For his doggedness alone, Livingstone has been admirable. Perhaps he has just been around the block too long to care for the whole formal apology/community meetings malarkey. Whatever the reason, there is something refreshing about a politician (even a retired one with a wrong idea) who refuses to play the game in this way. For a year, interviewers (often seeking to talk about subjects other than Hitler) have asked Livingstone why he will not say what everyone wants him to say. Yet he will not. He carries on arguing over aspects of deals he claims took place between ‘the Zionists’ and Hitler eight decades ago."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/i-come-to-praise-red-ken-not-to-bury-him/

You can see the witch hunt that went on in the labour party due to an excessive influence from a jewish lobby from the original complaint about that labour mp,Naz Shah, who in social media superimposed an image of Israel onto the USA, the jewish lobby and allies interpreted this as a real suggestion that Israel should be moved there and therefore anti semitism ? But any one with common sense could see it was an criticsim of the USA policy of protecting the Israelis from any votes that criticised them in the UN security council - you could have subtitled the image as "if the USA likes the Israelis so much give them a home land in the USA, and not deny the palestinans a state of their own?" a rather snide remark on US policy supporting Israel and its disasterous results?

You can see the extent of the jewish lobby in the Labour party in the latest news from the Guardian -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/06/ken-livingstone-on-hitler-1000-labour-supporters-urge-expulsion?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=220733&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

All very Twilight Zone methinks

[mercalia]

Garden Bridge in London should be scrapped, Hodge review finds

so it seems that £60m of tax payers money that Cameron personally intervened to spend will be wasted as looks like it wont go ahead as private sponsor ship has withdrawn and the cost has rocketed to £200m . Seems like Cameron should be sent the bill - he can pay it from the proceeds of his many lucrative earnings I am sure his is making?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39524979

[pwa]

This confuses me. The remark I have heard quoted, stating that Hitler was, for a while, in favour of Zionism and its aim of a separate state for Jews, seems okay if it is true. Is it true? I can see how Hitler might have seen it as a practical solution to what he (not Ken and certainly not me or you) saw as the problem of Jews in Germany. Ken also mentioned the Holocaust as a historical fact, so no holocaust denying nonsense there. I don't see a hint of antisemitism there. I don't like Ken's politics but I never had him down as a racist of any sort.

It is not true. This from David Baddiel in the Guardian is a good riposte:

The statement “Hitler supported Zionism” is not a fact. It’s an interpretation. An interpretation of a particular historical moment, in the 1930s, when the forced emigration of Jews from Germany was pushed further along by various Nazi economic incentives allowing those who fled to Palestine to get some of their stolen assets back.

The Nazis had various ideas to try and get Jews out of Germany - or 'judenrein' as they would have said. It included the idea of sending all Jews to Madagascar (1. It was a French colony at the time. 2. What about the indigenous population? 3. Why would all Jews want to go there?). It was evidently a ridiculous suggestion - would you call it Zionism?

The Nazis really only had free rein to exterminate the Jews following their invasion of Poland in 1939 and their initial massive successes after the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Suddenly they had control of large, and sometimes anonymous, tracts of land where Jews (and other ethnic groups) could be exterminated a long way from Germany and any reliable oversight. All German-run extermination camps were in what is now Poland. Concentration camps were more widely spread - including one in France.

The Nazis had no interest in a homeland for the Jews, during peacetime and under the eyes of the world, then trying to get Jews out of Germany by allowing passage to Palestine (for a large economic price) was an expedient method. Once under the fog of war and with the space to do it the Final Solution was implemented.

I'd like to hear KL's explanation for his assertion. His reason for saying Hitler supported Zionism's aim of a homeland for Jews at one point. I hope and expect that KL, like the rest of us, sees Hitler as the worst of human beings with the worst of motives, and any "support" for Zionism as an expedient for getting rid of people he hated through bigotry. I'm not ready to believe that KL is himself motivated by a similar line of bigotry.