Winter Fuel Payment.

[old_windbag]

I wasn't expecting a title on winter fuel allowance to open up into such an all encompassing debate. I agree with Jan on this point. I think the advice being given at one point was to either not claim the allowance or give it to a charity of choice if in the affluent position of not needing it. When I read Al's statement of paying more in tax than his state pension it sums up the mess this country is in. Seriously wealthy pensioners who "have worked hard all their lives" but are enjoying the benefits of the high stock market gains made in years past. A passing generation who are "very" fortunate indeed as the new generation still work the same hours etc and shall never see such great returns and pension highs.... those days are gone.

We should not be talking about the "bank of mum and dad". Everyone should be able to live and stand on their own financial feet, to have input from other sources causes yet more division as many do not have well off parents to loan money. What can also be forgotten is that many are fortunate to see pension age in good health. My father worked hard in heavy manual work but did not get past early 40's, yet was not of the obese britain we see today. This left us not well off at all, yet outside of state widows pension, child allowance no other benefits were claimed( remember a widows pension no way equalled even a low manual workers income ). The situation of child allowance should very much be means tested £50000 is still too high to be giving state aid away.

I think it's frightening and depressing to see people retiring at mid 50's, either on state subsidised final salaries or lucrative private pensions, then living to mid 80's. Thirty years of being able to do no work.... not much more time than their working life. I see it first hand with individuals each getting around 15-20k pa as a pension whilst someone is working a 40 hour week for 12k....... you may think you've worked for it but at least give all generations those same comfortable retirement prospects. I think that bubble has burst, so enjoy the payouts but consider truly if you could not do something altruistic with them.

[jan19]

I can almost *hear* some of you throwing stones at me across the Internet, but in for a penny....

Personally, if practical, I would means test ALL benefits. Including Child Benefit (no, I know its not practical). I'd include the State Pension in that comment, but as far as I'm aware it is means tested in that the maximum you can receive is based on the years you've worked? (Happy to be corrected if that's not the case).

Here's another *daft* one. Next year I will able to get a bus pass. Won't just pop through the door, I will have to apply. Now I do get the bus to work in the winter sometimes if its icy, so I will probably get one. I'm "entitled" to it just because I hit an age milestone. Our buses are good, and its a flat rate fare of £1.50 if you go one stop, or the entire length of the route. Nobody is going to check if I actually *need* it. I don't.

If we (as a nation) had money just to throw around, I'd say this would be fine. But we don't. Which is why I'm challenging this notion of "entitlement" due to age, not need.

(Collects tin hat on way out.....)

[al_yrpal]

so enjoy the payouts but consider truly if you could not do something altruistic with them.

They are payouts we paid for and saved for. Around here many of us do, all sorts of voluntary work, in my case it was helping the poorest retirees have a bit of fun in life and trips from their front door to places they wouldn't otherwise get to or hospital and dental appointments. I only know one person here who does nothing. I never had a particularly high paying job but I always saved and only really started a pension from when I was 46. The one I had from previous employment pays a small fortune, £11 per annum I don't see why I should give any of my pension away or my savings other than who I choose to? As it is 30% of our pensions already goes in taxes. We are paying a lot more than we receive after a lifetime of paying our taxes. It's often been said that means testing for the heating allowance or other benefits would not be cost effective. Target Garry Barlow, Garry Linaker, Apple, Google and all the other massive tax dodgers, you are aiming at the wrong target if you aim for people who did the right thing - to provide for themselves an enjoyable retirement with no drain on the state.

Al

[thirdcrank]

If we are looking for a group to be sorry for, let's remember the people who had occupational pensions with private companies who separated the assets from the pension liabilities from the assets and sold the latter while letting the former go bust launching the pensions lifeboat. Ditto people who were conned by exaggerated projections made by life insurance salesmen.

Ultimately, most of us rely on the promises made to us in our youth being kept in our old age.

[old_windbag]

As it is 30% of our pensions already goes in taxes

In general though as we have had tax relief on the initial contribution the tax when recieving it I guess is to be expected. It may be shrewd in respect of taxing the grown fund( maybe higher tax returned to hmrc doing this ). It always makes me think of betting, was it the case you could pay betting tax up front or waive it and get taxed on winnings? So I guess we could stop tax relief on contributions and remove taxation of the end payout, the end payout being probably markedly lower. Well outside of "defined benefit" schemes which use magic to generate a proportion of final salary.

[PH]

I'd include the State Pension in that comment, but as far as I'm aware it is means tested in that the maximum you can receive is based on the years you've worked? (Happy to be corrected if that's not the case).

I'd call that reverse means testing, your pension contribution was depended on your income at the time, but your payment is in no way linked to your current means.

[al_yrpal]

So I guess we could stop tax relief on contributions and remove taxation of the end payout Unlike pensions you don't get any tax relief for saving other than in an ISA and the rates have been diddly squat since the millennium. That's why people have been investing in buy to let's.

Al

[reohn2]

Jan19
I've worked all my life,always paid NI contributions and income tax.
The deal was I paid in so that when and if I reached retirement age I'd receive what's due to me in whatever benefits the government sees fit.
What I do with those benefits is entirely my decision,that's the deal,end of.

We can discuss the amounts(which aren't a living income TBH) but what's done with those benefits the individual receives is their decision and there's alone.
The the more someone earns during they working life the more they contribute to the system,so if they've saved for their retirement there's every chance the less their need at the end of their working life.
But like it or not they've subsidised those who've contributed very little or not at all,for whatever reason,so at the end of their working life to say,don't take it or give it away,is unprincipled IMHO.It's their choice and theirs alone to do with what's theirs.

EDIT:- if anyone should be hounded to pay what's due it's the Sir Philip Greens of this world,the wreckless bankers who got the country into this mess and who now sit on golden handshakes,the tax dodgers and tax avoiders who bankroll the political party currently in power.
But let's not forget the workshy scroungers too,though their illegal benefit claims are no match for the billions not paid by some of the very rich in our society.

[old_windbag]

That's why people have been investing in buy to let's.

With the new pension rules allowing access to funds instead of annuities this does fuel this side of things to some degree. I like the freedom that has been granted but it could be a risky move to allow it on the whole.

No the pension point I was making was to tax the paid contribution when working but not tax the pension payout( i.e monthly annuity return ). An alternative to current allowing of a tax free contribution whilst working but taxing the pension payments after retirement( above personal allowance anyway ).

[thirdcrank]

Even though the flat-rate pension will be introduced for some future pensioners, there will still be a rather subtle form of means testing in the availability of whatever is the current name for Income Support. Stop working at 60 and you won't be chased to look for work before you can claim IS. But that's means tested so if you have quite modest savings, you'll have to wait for anything from the state in the form of pension.

Having done several years as a volunteer CAB advisor I know that a lot of people believe that benefits are there for the asking and are surprised at the hoops to be gone through.

With some benefits there are wider policy issues. Mention older drivers and there's an immediate call for driving licences to be revoked. OTOH, bus passes are equally unpopular.

It seems to me that in blaming the economic woes of the country on particular groups there's a risk of losing sight of who got us into this mess. Fred the Shred losing his K was a gesture here.

[old_windbag]

It seems to me that in blaming the economic woes of the country on particular groups there's a risk of losing sight of who got us into this mess

Mrs Thatcher did her bit too. Our economy seemed to move into "service industries" at the expense of manufacturing. Hey the 70's always seemed gloomy when I saw the news as a kid, if it wasn't a BL strike, miners strike or a car bomb going off. But britain can do good things when people pull together..... triumph motorcycles is a lesson that we can design and manufacture( though some was offshored to thailand ). In science and technology we have great inventiveness and talent but without foreign minds too we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We are a cosmopolitan society with brain power from worldwide, EU particularly. Lets hope the next big step politicians make does not kill that creative co-operation.

[Boyd]

For some reason this morning, I thought I'd look it up.
I was amazed to find out, that I'm entitled to it.

I phoned them up, and I'm going to get £200.
From now on, they'll pay me each November.

I'm 64.
https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment/eligibility

I would be surprised if you are not entitled to warm home discount. See https://www.gov.uk/the-warm-home-discou ... ligibility
Note look at the second category.
As soon as I get it I change companies to a cheaper company ( both without an exit fee). New small companies are not required to give out warm front payments and other costs the larger companies have. So they can be much cheaper.

[Boyd]

yes well worth having. What made you think of it?

The important thing "you lived in the UK throughout the week of 19 to 25 September 2016" important to be living here that week, after that you can vanish to some where else

another thing that some men dont know is that the bus pass is tied to the womens retirement age not the mens - Many men seem ignorant of this, And by the way that age varies on when you/they are born

And anyone who cannot drive for medical reasons.
I can't get a shotgun license but I can have a bus pass and reduced train fare to boot.....sweet.

[Boyd]

Mick F is a month or so older than me, and this is the second winter I've been able to claim because the age restriction is linked to a woman's retirement age not to 65. It might be worth looking to see if they will back date your payment since you are due for last winter's as well.

This is a feature of being "out of the system". You have to keep tabs on what is due and be aware that payment will not just happen, you have to claim. Same as claiming a bus pass.

Hang on I am 60...just. So I am entitled to £200? Winter is over but can I still claim? 60 last January

[Boyd]

Sorry, and I know I'm going to upset a fair few on here, but I don't think winter fuel allowance should be automatic. Or indeed any other "age related" benefit.


My 84 year old Mum gets it. She also gets a free TV licence. She worked full time for 40+ years, and she has a good enough pension and enough equity released from downsizing from our family home 20 odd years ago to live very comfortably now. My late father in law got winter fuel allowance every year for the five he lived in a care home (didn't benefit him - just meant we paid less for his care that month).

Yet my girls struggle - eldest and hubby live in their own tiny home (bank of Mum and Dad made a big contribution here), youngest is still renting. I've no problem whatsoever with helping elderly folk who need help.....I'm just saying there are plenty that don't, and claiming "what they think they're entitled to" just takes help away from youngsters who need it far more than they do...

We are in an unprecedented crisis of health and social care. IMHO we're way beyond "we've worked all our lives so we're entitled to this or that". It surely has to be targetted to those in genuine need - and that doesn't apply to many retired folk. I will be retiring in the next year or so - I don't need all these benefits, and yet I'll be entitled to them.

Reasonable but I would definitely get it on a income basis but my cost of living in my opinion makes me very well off.
Specially as I now qualify for winter fuel payments.