What will you be doing on March 29th?

[roubaixtuesday]

Opinion:

the accounts of the EU not being produced for decades if at all.

Reality with citation:

Claim: The European Union is so corrupt that the European Court of Auditors has not signed off its accounts for 20 years.
Reality Check verdict: The Court of Auditors has signed the EU accounts every year since 2007, while pointing out that EU countries, once they receive the EU funds, misuse about 4.4% of the total budget.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36276175

[mjr]

You are correct about balancing the books, but that was my fault for using the wrong phrase. I was trying to make the point about the accounts of the EU not being produced for decades if at all. AFAIK the UK governments know where their financial position is even if it's in the red. The last time i paid any attention the EU did not produce any accounts and don't know their position. Of that's wrong it's a common misconception.

It's a very common misconception. The accounts have been produced every single year and you can find them on http://www.europa.eu - You may be thinking of the Auditors refusing to approve them in the past, but they have since. Now the EU's Auditors criticise maladministration of EU funds by the UK government... but strangely(!) that doesn't get reported in the europhobic UK press much. Example http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/eur ... -accounts/

If it is wrong then it's based on the idea of bureaucracy in a huge organization. There's likely to be few bureaucracies the size of the EU.

The European Commission has 23,000 staff. The UK government alone has 418,000 civil servants. If anything, it seems plausible there aren't enough staff to investigate all the dodgy accounting records being submitted by member state governments.

[pwa]

IIRC leave and remain sides stretched the truth. That, I'm afraid, was the nature of a divisive matter. Brexit is only black and white in its most basic way, that is in or out. Everything else was spin to gain the most votes. The worst of that spin was outright and easily fact checked lies. However there was a broad grey area between indisputable facts and outright lies which can only be proven with time. We are in that time now.

And I reckon we will have to wait at least a decade before we can see outcomes with anything like clarity.

[bovlomov]

And I reckon we will have to wait at least a decade before we can see outcomes with anything like clarity.

Let's continue fighting in the meantime.

[Vorpal]

Nobody can say how today's young people will feel when they get older.

I can.

They will become less naïve and idealistic and more sophisticated and conservative.

If they don't then it'll be the first time in human history that people don't change in this way as they age.

Labour and the Greens are keen on votes for 16 year olds precisely because they know that younger voters are essentially clueless and full of all sorts of daft ideas.

Even if it is true that people tend to become more conservative as they age, that doesn't mean it is true for every individual. Certainly, I know a number of people who are over 70 and have become more liberal as they aged, mainly due to life experience such as travel, living abroad, or as a result of an adult child coming out of the closet, struggling with mental health issues, etc.
I may have become less idealistic since I was 20, and I don't know that my social views have changed hugely over the years, but my political views certainly have. I've gone from socially liberal / fiscally conservative (putting me slightly right of centre on many issues) to the left.

Some of this is due to the fact that I have come to feel that social and environmental issues are more important. Some of it is due to published evidence and scientific studies about education, economies, social status, income inequality, and related topics. But a large part of it is due to what I have observed directly, having lived in the USA, UK, and Norway.

[Boyd]

Even if it is true that people tend to become more conservative as they age, that doesn't mean it is true for every individual. Certainly, I know a number of people who are over 70 and have become more liberal as they aged, mainly due to life experience such as travel, living abroad, or as a result of an adult child coming out of the closet, struggling with mental health issues, etc.
I may have become less idealistic since I was 20, and I don't know that my social views have changed hugely over the years, but my political views certainly have. I've gone from socially liberal / fiscally conservative (putting me slightly right of centre on many issues) to the left.

Some of this is due to the fact that I have come to feel that social and environmental issues are more important. Some of it is due to published evidence and scientific studies about education, economies, social status, income inequality, and related topics. But a large part of it is due to what I have observed directly, having lived in the USA, UK, and Norway.

It is not "even if it is true" it is true. The vast majority will become more conservative. Today's youngsters who voted to stay will suffer from selective amnesia when they reach there 40s and deny voting remain!

[mercalia]

well as you get older I think you become one of 2 options ( other than senile )

either you become conservative as has been pointed out
or you become radical and reforming as Trump seemed to be when he was talking of draining the swamp in DC? when you get old all the struggles after power and money can seem empty ( as long as you have enough )

[661-Pete]

....because they know that younger voters are essentially clueless and full of all sorts of daft ideas.

Quite right too. To paraphrase the late great Judge Mervyn Griffith-Jones,

would you even wish your wife or your servants to vote?

Let's get back to the good old days when it was just the Landed Gentry who had the vote. Keep those riff-raff's filthy hands out of the ballot box......

[Cyril Haearn]

Even if it is true that people tend to become more conservative as they age, that doesn't mean it is true for every individual. Certainly, I know a number of people who are over 70 and have become more liberal as they aged, mainly due to life experience such as travel, living abroad, or as a result of an adult child coming out of the closet, struggling with mental health issues, etc.
I may have become less idealistic since I was 20, and I don't know that my social views have changed hugely over the years, but my political views certainly have. I've gone from socially liberal / fiscally conservative (putting me slightly right of centre on many issues) to the left.

Some of this is due to the fact that I have come to feel that social and environmental issues are more important. Some of it is due to published evidence and scientific studies about education, economies, social status, income inequality, and related topics. But a large part of it is due to what I have observed directly, having lived in the USA, UK, and Norway.

It is not "even if it is true" it is true. The vast majority will become more conservative. Today's youngsters who voted to stay will suffer from selective amnesia when they reach there 40s and deny voting remain!

That is the thing, voting is secret and anonymous so no-one knows who voted how and changed the course of history

Power without responsibility?

[Boyd]

Even if it is true that people tend to become more conservative as they age, that doesn't mean it is true for every individual. Certainly, I know a number of people who are over 70 and have become more liberal as they aged, mainly due to life experience such as travel, living abroad, or as a result of an adult child coming out of the closet, struggling with mental health issues, etc.
I may have become less idealistic since I was 20, and I don't know that my social views have changed hugely over the years, but my political views certainly have. I've gone from socially liberal / fiscally conservative (putting me slightly right of centre on many issues) to the left.

Some of this is due to the fact that I have come to feel that social and environmental issues are more important. Some of it is due to published evidence and scientific studies about education, economies, social status, income inequality, and related topics. But a large part of it is due to what I have observed directly, having lived in the USA, UK, and Norway.

It is not "even if it is true" it is true. The vast majority will become more conservative. Today's youngsters who voted to stay will suffer from selective amnesia when they reach there 40s and deny voting remain!

That is the thing, voting is secret and anonymous so no-one knows who voted how and changed the course of history

Power without responsibility?

So we should be allowed to see everyone's ballot papers? Great idea if you favour intimidation to get your way.

[mjr]

That is the thing, voting is secret and anonymous so no-one knows who voted how and changed the course of history

And yet, every ballot paper is numbered and they track who is given which numbered paper...

[Boyd]

That is the thing, voting is secret and anonymous so no-one knows who voted how and changed the course of history

And yet, every ballot paper is numbered and they track who is given which numbered paper...

Yep and they came round my house and told me I had filled mine in wrongs..!

[Cyril Haearn]

That is the thing, voting is secret and anonymous so no-one knows who voted how and changed the course of history

And yet, every ballot paper is numbered and they track who is given which numbered paper...

Maybe one should take a photo of the ballot paper to *prove* how one voted in the referendum in case the grandchildren ask later

The ballot has to fulfil certain criteria, has to be documented. I imagine many people realise that it is not really secret

[mjr]

And yet, every ballot paper is numbered and they track who is given which numbered paper...

Maybe one should take a photo of the ballot paper to *prove* how one voted in the referendum in case the grandchildren ask later

The ballot has to fulfil certain criteria, has to be documented. I imagine many people realise that it is not really secret

Even though ballot papers are numbered and traceable, you're strongly discouraged from taking a photo of your ballot, on pain of being judged disruptive by a polling officer obeying Electoral Commission recommendations, which is a crime. Taking a photo of anyone else in a polling station is also forbidden. Penalties are fairly harsh.

The same concerns don't apply to postal ballots, so you could photograph your own if you wanted, although one may not induce others to show how they voted.

[Cyril Haearn]

What will you be doing on 29 March 2018?