Driving test: Learners must be able to use sat navs

[RickH]

Satnav (including phone based) Is not necessarily de-skilling.

I regularly travel between home near Bolton & Chester. Most often I go by bike & train but sometimes - particularly if I'm travelling on Sundays when the trains are erratic or, worse when you have a bike with you, replaced by buses - I do the trip by car. I usually at least consult the GPS routing (usually Google Maps on my phone) to see what the traffic is doing.

The other Sunday afternoon I was heading for home, a time when the traffic is most likely to be clear, but I found Google wanting to send me several miles along the A56 out of Chester instead of joining the M56 where there was a significant traffic jam. Following the satnav route benefited me as I wasn't delayed significantly. It will also have benefited others as I was one less car in the motorway queue. When I've done the trip on weekday afternoons it is not unusual to be asked if I want to accept a change of route because of congestion building up on the formerly quickest route. Plus I've also found a couple of new routes home from the M6 that are comparable in overall distance where my mental mapping would have said previously were longer.

Mrs H has a relatively recent (& not particularly expensive) Garmin which also does traffic monitoring & has regular, free, map updates.

Both that & Google Maps give advance warning of lanes helping to anticipate which you will need to be in before any signage in unfamiliar places.

At the end of the day, though, they are just a glorified mapping tool and you need to be able to assess what is happening on the ground & respond accordingly - an older satnav we had would get really confused where one town we went through regularly changed from being 2 one-way roads (1 each way) through the town centre to having one road 2 way & the other blocked to through traffic.

[pwa]

Absolute rubbish!
How was your job done before crapnav?

I was a Motorcycle Courier for 5 years in the 1990s(before crapnav and Mobile phones)and I travelled the length and breadth of the mainland UK with absolutely no issues using maps and A-Z guides
The trouble is now people have gotten idle and believe they can't travel 10 miles down the road without being told where to go by a little box.

RE the Satnav/driving test.Personally I think drivers should be given a destination and have to get there by reading road signs...it really isn't hard but something many drivers don't seem to be able to do!

I think you will find most people who drive as part or all of their job are now using satnav for much of their driving. Things have moved on since the 1990s.

Yes and I think you'll find I covered that in my original post
Just because "most" people with driving jobs now use Satnav it doesn't mean that job is not possible without Satnav.You're quite right things have moved on since the 1990s...sadly as things move on peoples Brains(or use of) seem to move backwards
I have loads of technology so I'm no Luddite but I think Satnavs are just as much of a distraction when driving as mobile phones(are deemed to be),I personally see no difference to glancing at a Satnav then there is to glancing at a phone and unfortunately there are far to many people who follow them so blindly that they actually have no real idea where they are
These types are only marginally less stupid than the idiots who blindly follow GPS in the Hills who have no idea where they are when the Batteries run out

I detect some overlap in our views. I agree that a satnav can lead to bad driving if the user gives it too much attention or looks at it at the wrong moment, which is one reason I think some learning is required to use them safely. The same sort of safety concerns must once have been relevant for lorry drivers trying to read a road atlas while driving. And I have seen that happen.

No driver doing a delivery job these days will last five minutes without a satnav. And some of todays learner drivers will go on to be delivery drivers. You may be able to to work out quickly the most sensible route from one town to the next, but you may not find a simple, easy to remember route to
5 Enid Street that does not require you to pull over and refresh your memory as you get closer. And modern delivery businesses do not allocate time for that pulling over. A satnav is like having a passenger reading the map for you, allowing you to concentrate more on the actual driving and not having to think too much about the route. You can use them safely, and you can use them with discretion.

[old_windbag]

Rather than the use of satnav I'd be happier to see learners taught about engine power/torque characteristics and the purpose of a gearbox . Then we may have a generation who don't accelerate the nuts off their car from junctions and also drive in the highest practical gear rather than sitting at 3000rpm needlesly. The people I see driving like this tend to be older in years . Also overtaking a cyclist doesn't need the car to be caned leaving a cloud of fumes. In fact you don't normally need to change gear to do a pass smoothly and safely.

[pwa]

Rather than the use of satnav I'd be happier to see learners taught about engine power/torque characteristics and the purpose of a gearbox . Then we may have a generation who don't accelerate the nuts off their car from junctions and also drive in the highest practical gear rather than sitting at 3000rpm needlesly. The people I see driving like this tend to be older in years . Also overtaking a cyclist doesn't need the car to be caned leaving a cloud of fumes. In fact you don't normally need to change gear to do a pass smoothly and safely.

If you go on a speed awareness course they tell you to avoid higher gears when a lower one will do. They recommend third gear in a 30 zone as it makes it easier to keep down to the target speed without constant braking. I'd imagine that reflects what driving instructors are told to impart to learners.

[Mick F]

It's part of the suite of instruments to be operated and controlled.

The problem is Mick that the Sat Nav usually controls the driver .....

That's the point.
Education.

[Cyril Haearn]

What about The Knowledge?

Do London black cab drivers still have to learn it? What happens to a brain when it learns The Knowledge?

[old_windbag]

If you go on a speed awareness course they tell you to avoid higher gears when a lower one will do. They recommend third gear in a 30 zone as it makes it easier to keep down to the target speed without constant braking. I'd imagine that reflects what driving instructors are told to impart to learners.

I agree as that is the point I make here.....

also drive in the highest practical gear

I too sit in 3rd gear in a 30 zone, I'm at around 1800-2000rpm at 30mph in 3rd( petrol engine ). Many years ago the rule of thumb was 1st 0-10mph, 2nd 10-20mph, 3rd 20-30mph from my driving tuition, in a mini 1000, but it was an instructors guideline because cars tended not to have rev counters it was done by ear. Basically I never labour the engine but at the same time I have it in a gear that gives optimal economy( well that would be switched off ) and still offers acceleration if needed. Modern engines quite often produce lots of torque at lower rev's for that purpose, more tractable, practical driving. But many drivers I see when cycling hammer their engines and also seem to sit at constant speed with high rev's. Modern ECU's have changed engine characteristics to benefit us in lower speed/urban driving and give us the economy..... even though many will disagree on the economy front. I think mechanical sympathy is important too to extend engine life and keep part failures low.

[Cyril Haearn]

Using 3rd gear at 30mph is wrong, it is louder and uses more energy. Speed awareness courses should not teach this

I use 4th, sometimes 5th on the level or downhill, engine does not complain

If one needs to *accelerate out of trouble* one just changes down, it only takes a moment

..

BMC advertising c1970:

the front wheel drive MAXI pulls you out of trouble instead of pushing you into it

[Bonefishblues]

It's IAM advice too, for the reasons stated previously. Saying it's wrong is plain wrong.

[Mick F]

3rd at 30.

Absolutely excellent advice.
I sussed that out LONG before I even thought about being a member of the IAM.

30 isn't a target.
It's a limit.

[Cunobelin]

As someone who has to teach the poor buggers! these changes have been hear-say in the industry for a number of years.

The examiner will bring a pre-programmed sat nav with them on the test which the learner will have to set up and follow (grr, even more cleaning of my screen on the inside from the sat nav mount!), meaning more time moving on different roads without the promp from the examiner with directions.

They will also be introducing a new manoeuvre which will be to drive forwards into a parking bay and then reverse out...

Surely it is standard good practice to reverse into a parking bay where possible
Is the test getting too like the real world where one just ignores many laws?

..
there is nothing worse than a young pessimist.. except maybe an old optimist

That's true-however what do you do at most supermarkets? Where if you reverse into the bay you can't get your shopping in the boot as someone has parked so close to you in the bay behind! The reverse into a bay is already tested at many test centres.

One of our relatives has a large 4x4 - which she fully admits she cannot park, she just abandons it

[Psamathe]

Surely it is standard good practice to reverse into a parking bay where possible
Is the test getting too like the real world where one just ignores many laws?

..
there is nothing worse than a young pessimist.. except maybe an old optimist

That's true-however what do you do at most supermarkets? Where if you reverse into the bay you can't get your shopping in the boot as someone has parked so close to you in the bay behind! The reverse into a bay is already tested at many test centres.

One of our relatives has a large 4x4 - which she fully admits she cannot park, she just abandons it

Helping somebody (I didn't know) hitch-up a large trailer a few weeks ago and they arrive in their large 4x4 and had no end of problems reversing to even close to get the trailer attached. I was "concerned" about their inability to handle the machine and at the same time appreciated why it is this type of vehicle that causes me most fear on the road (close passes at speed, lack of consideration in passing places, pulling out, etc.).

Ian

[Eammno]

I'm hoping part of the instruction and test will be to attach the sat nav to the screen in a safe and suitable position, which in my experience is low, and close to the A pillar. How anyone thinks they can see adequately with a sat nav stuck in the middle of the screen where it obscures everything near side, so cyclists, pedestrians, road signs etc, is beyond me.

[Ruadh495]

Personally I'm convinced that sat nav is safer than paper maps / road signs etc, if used correctly.

Anyone remember trying to drive whilst counting junctions each side, trying to read partially obscured road names, the arguments with the "navigator"... People driving with paper maps on their laps (I'm sure none of us were that stupid...), the sudden dives for junctions... I have a vivid memory of someone pulling up and reversing on a roundabout because they missed their exit...

The major skill I'd put under "used correctly" is when to ignore the sat nav. If you can't follow it safely, for example where you realise too late that it means that left turn, not the next one, ignore it. The sat nav will sort itself out and give you a new route, not accompanied by an ear bashing (how many marriages have been saved by this technology?). Hopefully that is what they are teaching. That and not trying to set it up while the vehicle is moving, of course.

Many drivers are going to use sat nav, so its best to teach them all to use it safely, even if some of us find it dispensable.

[Paulatic]

The last five weeks I've been driving on busy roads completely unknown to me. My conventional navigator couldn't keep pace nor see the essential detail needed to keep me on the correct course.
I downloaded 'Here we Go' a free sat navy app for the IPhone. Initially there was a bit of competition between OH and the satnav voice. There has also been a learning curve to understand exactly what it means and crucially understand the different type of arrows shown when on a Mway to get you in correct lane at junctions.
Today we've travelled from Cambridge to Nth Lincs without stress and always taking right lane and the right turn. We've cracked this satnav business so much so OH doesn't even argue with it now.
So in a month I've gone from b****y satnavs! To yes I think they should be in the test. Like road signs you need to understand them and follow them correctly.