** The General Election Thread **

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old_windbag
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Joined: 19 Feb 2015, 3:55pm

Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by old_windbag »

thirdcrank wrote:You refer to common sense and being realistic but it's written with the benefit of hindsight. I'm pleased that all those years ago I looked to the future.


Where shift work is concerned it applies across many industries. I personally have always voiced my own feelings on obeying our body clocks, ie thinking you can be night shift one week day shift the next is asking for trouble.... We aren't machines. But fortunately some parts of employment are catching up with science and the health negatives are more understood. In private industry i was never allowed flexitime but in the last decade rules have changed to allow those with families to request it, those without can't, theres parity.

As much as hindsight may be beneficial the calculations for future funding of a ponzi pension system were achievable back in the day. It would have been seen unsustainable, most similar private schemes have long gone. Based on the annuity rate of your retirement date you could calculate the cash pot required to generate the pension you have and i'd imagine the amount would be massively different to your contributions. Thats not a personal dig just the realisation of how much is needed. I have always heard the public sector pays less than private it may have been then but i dont see that today, looking at police, nursing, teaching salaries they seem very good and better than those of other occupations with similar or higher qualifications. The politics of the job may be poor but thats an organisational thing, just as there are poor conditions in some private companies, the salaries aren't poor though. Anyway you must have enjoyed the job to stay at it for 30yrs as you could have done many other jobs outside of that. I studied to 21, will work 46 years and receive about 4-5k pension. So a lot of money saved for not a big return, but thats not unusual and we do have a pensions crisis hence govt efforts to bring schemes in. Too late for. The middle aged though. But it is the reality of private defined contribution schemes, but sustainable with no tax subsidy outside of allowance on contributions that everyone gets.

I suppose another way to view it from what you say, would be to have paid you 20% extra on your salary and removed the pension arrangement completely. Then allowed you to choose your own private scheme..... Which is what thatcher made myself and many do. Separation of pensions from employment would be a good thing, keep it independent from employment. You get paid and you choose how much if anything you pay into your own scheme, just like we choose our car insurance etc independent of our employer. That could be the answer in public sector the pension contribution is returned as salary but no retirement pension is offered. Thats quite fair as they can spend or save the 20% as they feel right. I'm sure they'd grumble about that too even though they'd be better off.
blackbike
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Joined: 11 Jul 2009, 3:21pm

Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by blackbike »

PH wrote:
blackbike wrote:But many of those public servants have no empathy with the rest of us as they greedily and selfishly demand that we give them bumper pay rises as millions of us continue to endure pay free freezes or even worse such as pay cuts or job losses.

Ah, the politics of envy. The tory trick is to make you envious of the wrong people, divide and rule.
It's hard to argue with your broad brush generalisations, just who do you think these greedy public servants are? Maybe it's the nurses who are leaving the NHS in record numbers to take up better paid jobs in the private sector?


An odd comment as you don't know my personal circumstances and in any case why would anyone be envious of a public sector pay freeze?

It is simple greed and selfishness for public servants to demand pay rises which will have to be paid for by other workers enduring the same or even worse.

Corbyn would have taken money off lots of hard pressed workers to reward a minority who mostly vote Labour.
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by thirdcrank »

Private sector pensions haven't always been bad news. Most of that is, in my terms relatively recent. The pension fund used to be a way of putting a company's £££ beyond the reach of the tax man. There was a time when pension funds were invested conservatively in things like gilts (govt bonds) but then an increasing number of big pension schemes dashed headlong into equities, inevitably pushing up their price if not their underlying value by significantly increasing demand. The tiny pinprick which burst the bubble was the Millennium Bug but that coincided with the chap with the moral compass working out a way for the taxman to get his hands on some of the lucre as well. The private pension problems were further exposed when companies were taken over and their pension liabilities were hived off into separate companies, which led to the launch of the pension lifeboat transferring the liabilities into public ownership. Public sector pensions suddenly looked attractive.

But I'm talking with the benefit of hindsight.
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by pete75 »

blackbike wrote:
PH wrote:
blackbike wrote:But many of those public servants have no empathy with the rest of us as they greedily and selfishly demand that we give them bumper pay rises as millions of us continue to endure pay free freezes or even worse such as pay cuts or job losses.

Ah, the politics of envy. The tory trick is to make you envious of the wrong people, divide and rule.
It's hard to argue with your broad brush generalisations, just who do you think these greedy public servants are? Maybe it's the nurses who are leaving the NHS in record numbers to take up better paid jobs in the private sector?


An odd comment as you don't know my personal circumstances and in any case why would anyone be envious of a public sector pay freeze?

It is simple greed and selfishness for public servants to demand pay rises which will have to be paid for by other workers enduring the same or even worse.

Corbyn would have taken money off lots of hard pressed workers to reward a minority who mostly vote Labour.


Hmmm just where do you work?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Psamathe
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by Psamathe »

I see that the "trend" is continuing
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-lead-theresa-may-conservatives-tories-survation-poll-general-election-a7784171.html wrote:Labour now has a six-point lead over the Tories, new poll finds
Figures show a swing of eight points for Jeremy Corbyn's party since the general election

I wonder if this is because May is still just "getting it wrong" with her plans with the DUP, antagonising the electorate still further. Or that she has hidden away, nobody knows what she is doing, nobody knows what is happening about Brexit. Or maybe just that a damaged leader clinging on to power before the inevitable happens is never going to get much support.

Whatever the reasons, to me she is looking inwards, ignoring the electorate, keeping them in the dark, doing what she wants rather than what we want, we are an irrelevance to her.

Ian
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meic
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by meic »

we are an irrelevance to her.


She is probably busy with much more urgent problems, which unless she sorts she will not be facing an electorate again.

Five years is a long time in politics, something could easily happen in that time to enable her to reclaim her standing. The obvious saviour for her personal position would be us entering into another war, which is always good for uniting the country behind its leader.
Yma o Hyd
mercalia
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by mercalia »

Psamathe wrote:I see that the "trend" is continuing
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-lead-theresa-may-conservatives-tories-survation-poll-general-election-a7784171.html wrote:Labour now has a six-point lead over the Tories, new poll finds
Figures show a swing of eight points for Jeremy Corbyn's party since the general election

I wonder if this is because May is still just "getting it wrong" with her plans with the DUP, antagonising the electorate still further. Or that she has hidden away, nobody knows what she is doing, nobody knows what is happening about Brexit. Or maybe just that a damaged leader clinging on to power before the inevitable happens is never going to get much support.

Whatever the reasons, to me she is looking inwards, ignoring the electorate, keeping them in the dark, doing what she wants rather than what we want, we are an irrelevance to her.

Ian



well when the rot sets in the worms come out from the woodwork and the rats flee the sinking ship?

I see Osborne is declaring that May is on death row, May is dead woman walking.

god help us if he comes back :oops: :shock: :cry:

The only good thing to come from this election is that it really does matter to vote, that the people do matter and the arrogant and complacent political establisjment have been given a bloody nose ( again). all rather encourageing. I think its all a shame that May has turned out to be such a disappointment, after the Cameron/Osborne butchery that preceded it?
Last edited by mercalia on 11 Jun 2017, 10:40am, edited 1 time in total.
Psamathe
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by Psamathe »

meic wrote:
we are an irrelevance to her.


She is probably busy with much more urgent problems, which unless she sorts she will not be facing an electorate again.
.....

From which I take that it is all still about her. Not the good of the country, but about her being able to face another election. Which says it all about her attitude (and probably a significant contributor to the election result).

Ian
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by Psamathe »

But concern for the PM is also building
http://eveningharold.com/2017/06/11/fears-grow-for-tragic-pm-unable-to-say-anything-other-than-meaningless-three-word-phrases/ wrote:Fears grow for tragic PM unable to say anything other than meaningless three word phrases
...
Concerned well-wishers are gathering outside the gates of Downing Street this morning as the Prime Minister continues to sound off like a senile Furby
....
“It’s extremely worrying,” said a supporter wearing a Exchange gay rights for May rights t-shirt. “I love the Prime Minister but maybe the Brexit negotiations shouldn’t be in the hands of someone who is to verbal fluency what Boris Johnson is to integrity.”


And she continues to find people to blame for her failure
http://eveningharold.com/2017/06/10/pm-sacks-advisers-those-to-blame-must-pay/ wrote:Mrs May has punished those to blame for the election debacle, by sacking the people she chose as her advisers.

“Nick and Fiona looked nice but behaved like thugs, which was a perfect fit for me, but they got it all wrong. What I need to know is, who advised me to hire them? Then I can sack them as well.”


Ian
Last edited by Psamathe on 11 Jun 2017, 10:48am, edited 1 time in total.
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meic
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by meic »

You can count the number of politicians for whom it is not all about them on the fingers of one hand.
A hand that has gone through a circular saw when it comes to career politicians.
Yma o Hyd
mercalia
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by mercalia »

so it seems Juncker the drunk is all to blame?

"The Observer has learned that May took the fateful decision to call the election having been urged to do so by commission president Jean-Claude Juncker.
Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker at the European Commission headquarters in Brussels in October 2016.
It is understood that Juncker had advised May to call an early general election as a result of his concerns that the 17-seat majority she had inherited from David Cameron would not be enough during the pinch points of the negotiations, including over the issue of the UK’s divorce bill, estimated to be as much as €100bn"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/election-nicky-morgan-theresa-hard-brexit?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=230066&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
Psamathe
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by Psamathe »

mercalia wrote:so it seems Juncker the drunk is all to blame?

"The Observer has learned that May took the fateful decision to call the election having been urged to do so by commission president Jean-Claude Juncker.
Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker at the European Commission headquarters in Brussels in October 2016.
It is understood that Juncker had advised May to call an early general election as a result of his concerns that the 17-seat majority she had inherited from David Cameron would not be enough during the pinch points of the negotiations, including over the issue of the UK’s divorce bill, estimated to be as much as €100bn"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/election-nicky-morgan-theresa-hard-brexit?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=230066&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

That story is a "good one". Does our "damn difficult woman" who can face down the EU before breakfast, "get the best deal possible for the UK", etc. do what Junker tells her to do ? If it is 10% true she should step down as it makes a complete joke of her being able to negotiate the UK's departure.

Ian
Psamathe
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by Psamathe »

Lots of interesting polls
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-leadership-challenge-conservative-tory-leadership-election-2017-a7784226.html wrote:Main candidates to replace Theresa May would all make Tories less popular, poll suggests
A change of leadership does not seem to be a way out for the Tories


I'm beginning to wonder if May staying might be best. Reasons:
1. May is weak, dependent on Scottish Conservatives who seem to demand a softer Brexit
2. No new leader is going to call a General Election for quite some time
3. New leader will claim a "mandate" (even though that is a mandate only from those organising the coronation)
4. New leader risks "re-vitalising" the Conservatives, make them think they can do what they want again (irrespective of the electorate)
5. Weak leader has to tread very carefully, taking a middle road, nothing extreme (less damaging than a re-vitalised confident party)

Just thinking aloud on the assumption that there is no way we are having another General Election for at least 2 years.

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by thirdcrank »

Psamathe wrote: ... I'm beginning to wonder if May staying might be best. ...


For whom? People who don't like Messrs. Dimbleby and Vine?
Psamathe
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Re: ** The General Election Thread **

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote:
Psamathe wrote: ... I'm beginning to wonder if May staying might be best. ...


For whom? People who don't like Messrs. Dimbleby and Vine?

Just thinking "off-the-wall". Assuming that whatever happens there is not going to be another General Election for absolute soonest 1 year, probably longer. So 99.9% we have a minority Conservative government for at least 2 years. So do we want a Conservative government beholden to Scottish Conservatives (who will require a softer less damaging less ideologically driven Brexit) or do we want a Conservative Party re-energised and feeling invincible with a new leader (who wont dare call a General Election) and feeling driven to return to true Conservative policies (cut tax for the wealthy, cut support for the vulnerable, cut the NHS (or the bits they can sell to US healthcare companies), etc.)

And pretty well all of the candidates who might take over are ideologically driver to the hardest of hard Brexits (most damaging to the country) - I can't see Rudd or Hammond getting far.

I will admit that when the alcohol leaves my system and I come to my senses I might be posting the opposite .... but, it's a thought?

Edit: Of relevance
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ruth-davidson-conservatives-scottish-tory-brexit-negotiations-theresa-may-a7784161.html wrote:Scottish Tory 'heroine' Ruth Davidson signals to May she'll use her new power to scupper hard Brexit

But would somebody like Blobby be stronger at standing up to Davidson ? May certainly can't as the electorate have clearly rejected May's mandate, but a new Party Leader with all the delusions that seem to go with the position ...

Ian
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