Rift within the UK

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pete75
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by pete75 »

Vorpal wrote:Whatever else you think of them, the Tories (and Trump!) have done a good job of recognising the pain and selling their solutions.



May has recognised the dissatisfaction and is using for her own ends. What solution has she offered other than saying she wants a Britain that works for everyone? A trite phrase with nothing back it up.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Vorpal
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by Vorpal »

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
These issues have not only made people dissatisfied, but also passionate about what they think will be best for helping them.

While I broadly agree with your drift a little film made by John Harris of the Guardian shows a good few people to be completely confused and a fair few more totally apathetic.
Not all but very high percentage.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... on-victory

It sort of begs the question as to why are people so confused in this age of information?

Well, I think part of the problem is that people are passionate about specific issues (i.e. benefits, minimum wage, immigrants), but haven't given a great deal of thought to the big picture. Or strategy.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Vorpal
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by Vorpal »

pete75 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Whatever else you think of them, the Tories (and Trump!) have done a good job of recognising the pain and selling their solutions.



May has recognised the dissatisfaction and is using for her own ends. What solution has she offered other than saying she wants a Britain that works for everyone? A trite phrase with nothing back it up.

I didn't say they were good solutions! Just well-sold.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
pete75
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by pete75 »

Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Whatever else you think of them, the Tories (and Trump!) have done a good job of recognising the pain and selling their solutions.



May has recognised the dissatisfaction and is using for her own ends. What solution has she offered other than saying she wants a Britain that works for everyone? A trite phrase with nothing back it up.

I didn't say they were good solutions! Just well-sold.


The point is she hasn't offered any solutions. A trite phrase is not a solution.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Vorpal
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by Vorpal »

pete75 wrote:The point is she hasn't offered any solutions. A trite phrase is not a solution.

Hard Brexit is seen as a solution. As is 'the best deal for Britain'.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Psamathe
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by Psamathe »

Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:The point is she hasn't offered any solutions. A trite phrase is not a solution.

Hard Brexit is seen as a solution. As is 'the best deal for Britain'.

It may (or may not) be a solution to one aspect of the challenges facing the UK. But what about the challenge of the NHS (it was not long ago in Parliament when the NHS was record breaking at failing ever more targets that May stood up and denied there was any crisis in the NHS!). What about our deficit; we were promised the deficit would be gone by 2015 and we'd be in surplus paying off the national debt, but whop knows when we'll get there now or how much further austerity is needed and all May can say on the matter is "strong and stable" followed by "coalition of chaos" - which isn't very informative. etc., etc.

And the solution she is offering over Brexit (the one where be get all the benefits of membership, free trade, none of the constraints (like ECJ, regulations, freedom of movement, etc.) all through a hardest of hard Brexit's ... well the EU seems to be laughing at us so is she actually offering a solution of a pipe dream?

Ian
pete75
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by pete75 »

Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:The point is she hasn't offered any solutions. A trite phrase is not a solution.

Hard Brexit is seen as a solution. As is 'the best deal for Britain'.


If you believe that you'll believe anything.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
jgurney
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by jgurney »

francovendee wrote:I wonder what it will take to unite the country again?


Lots of good points made upthread.

On the EU issue, only an evidently successful outcome from leaving will produce a painless consensus, as Remain supporters realise their fears were groundless and accept things. An evidently bad outcome might eventually have the same result, but only through lots of Leave supporters changing sides and an expensive and contentious rejoining process. An outcome where it could plausibly be argued either way, some convinced that leaving has left us a bit better off and others than we would have been a bit better off had we stayed in, could keep divisions going for decades.

Economic inequality is not helping. Britain already has one of the least equal income distributions in the EU (e.g. the ratio of the incomes of richest and poorest deciles here is roughly twice that of Germany). I can't see leaving doing anything to improve that.

Excessive individualism, probably IMO linked to both more customer focused industry and the Internet, may also be a factor. More people want only a solution which suits them exactly and will not accept any necessarily collective solution to what are really collective problems. (People who won't vote for any candidate as none of their policy offers suit them, but won't either accept that what they want is too unusual to have much influence in a democracy, or consider trying to get together with other like-minded people to start a new party, so they remain perpetually dissatisfied).
Vorpal
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by Vorpal »

pete75 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:The point is she hasn't offered any solutions. A trite phrase is not a solution.

Hard Brexit is seen as a solution. As is 'the best deal for Britain'.


If you believe that you'll believe anything.

I didn't say I believed it. But it seems that others do. My brother-in-law is a fan. He voted Tory for the first time in his life in the recent local elections.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Boyd
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by Boyd »

jgurney wrote:
francovendee wrote:I wonder what it will take to unite the country again?


Lots of good points made upthread.

On the EU issue, only an evidently successful outcome from leaving will produce a painless consensus, as Remain supporters realise their fears were groundless and accept things. ).

There is no chance of the remainders accepting the outcome they will always find fault. There can of course be no perfect outcome and they will always target anything no matter how small it is.
jgurney
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by jgurney »

Boyd wrote:
jgurney wrote: On the EU issue, only an evidently successful outcome from leaving will produce a painless consensus, as Remain supporters realise their fears were groundless and accept things. ).

There is no chance of the [Remain supporters] accepting the outcome ....


Why do you think so? Many were presumably guided by fears that leaving the EU would harm the economy, and if the reverse happens will be glad that what they feared has not occurred and will enjoy the benefits. Why should they react any other way?
Boyd
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by Boyd »

jgurney wrote:
Boyd wrote:
jgurney wrote: On the EU issue, only an evidently successful outcome from leaving will produce a painless consensus, as Remain supporters realise their fears were groundless and accept things. ).

There is no chance of the [Remain supporters] accepting the outcome ....


Why do you think so? Many were presumably guided by fears that leaving the EU would harm the economy, and if the reverse happens will be glad that what they feared has not occurred and will enjoy the benefits. Why should they react any other way?

You are being very naive... as I am to some degree.
I base my statement on the remainders on here who I am certain WILL find fault no matter how well it went. I am absolutely certain of that.
Of course they might not represent the majority of remainders.
francovendee
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by francovendee »

Boyd wrote:
jgurney wrote:
Boyd wrote:There is no chance of the [Remain supporters] accepting the outcome ....


Why do you think so? Many were presumably guided by fears that leaving the EU would harm the economy, and if the reverse happens will be glad that what they feared has not occurred and will enjoy the benefits. Why should they react any other way?

You are being very naive... as I am to some degree.
I base my statement on the remainders on here who I am certain WILL find fault no matter how well it went. I am absolutely certain of that.
Of course they might not represent the majority of remainders.

Do you think it will be any worse than people finding fault with a current government policy that have always appeared on here? If so then we will still have a rift within the UK.
I think that one of two things might happen.
Brexit is a resounding success.
We have a hard Brexit and because the media portrays the EU as ganging up on the UK a Dunkirk spirit will develop.
You will of course always have people saying that everything would be better if we'd remained and people putting 'spin' on any negatives to turn them into positives.
After all the dust has settled I just hope differences can be expressed without so much vitriol.
Vorpal
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by Vorpal »

Boyd wrote:You are being very naive... as I am to some degree.
I base my statement on the remainders on here who I am certain WILL find fault no matter how well it went. I am absolutely certain of that.
Of course they might not represent the majority of remainders.

There will be plenty of Brexiters who find fault, as well. It's the nature of people to find fault with stuff that isn't done the way they think it should be. Becuase of that, of course, there will be more remainers than Brexiters who find fault, but if it proves to be good for the UK, it's fine by me.

I do think that with the current strategy that is unlikely, but with proper investment in key areas that will be substantially affect by Brexit, such as industry, agriculture, and fisheries it could be beneficial, especially without being subject to the common agriculture and fisheries policies.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
thirdcrank
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Re: Rift within the UK

Post by thirdcrank »

... There is no chance of the remainders accepting the outcome they will always find fault. There can of course be no perfect outcome and they will always target anything no matter how small it is.


:shock: The enemy within. :shock:

:lol:
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