Housing crisis

[Vorpal]

Drink and drugs are the reason they ended up on the streets having talked to many of them, not the other way sround

Addiction and alcoholism are illnesses. People with drug and drink problems should have much better opportunities for treatment. Most are told to go their GPs, who almost certainly do not understand alcohol and other drug dependency. If an addict can get any help, they are typically sent to counselling, or a 12 step group. Although this is successful for some people, it's the easy way out for the NHS. It is *much* more likely to be successful if combined with residential treatment &/or professional mental health care. But the NHS takes the policy of wait and see how bad it gets. Residential treatment is almost exclusively reserved for people who have attempted suicide, or have proven multiple times that counselling and 12 step programmes aren't enough for them. Unless, of course, they have a family that can pay for private care.

People don't end up on the streets because they have drinks or drugs problem. They end up on the streets because the system has failed to give them the help they need.

[al_yrpal]

Nice bit of hyperbole. Some of the ones I have talked to have had lots of help but fallen out of the system again and again. Its always 'them'. Came across that again and again in the valleys, its never me or us...

Al

[reohn2]

Nice bit of hyperbole. Some of the ones I have talked to have had lots of help but fallen out of the system again and again. Its always 'them'. Came across that again and again in the valleys, its never me or us...

Al

I don't think it's hyperbole,though I agree not everyone can rid themselves of drink and or drugs,some won't but the majority will given the right treatment.
There are many reasons for drink and drug misuse but to write everyone off as being weak or them blaming their addiction on someone or something else in the blanket way you are claiming is wrong,misleading and lacking the understanding of the problem.

[Vorpal]

Nice bit of hyperbole. Some of the ones I have talked to have had lots of help but fallen out of the system again and again. Its always 'them'. Came across that again and again in the valleys, its never me or us...

Al

Hyperbole.

Talking to homeless people who've had lots of help but fallen out of the system again and again makes my words hyperbole. Tell me exactly what 'lots of help' is and what qualifies you to judge if it was appropriate or correct.

Have you ever lost a friend or family member to the disease? Or is it enough to know that homeless people got 'lots of help', even if they were never actually treated for their disease.

If someone goes to the GP with a complaint about something like pain in a joint, they will have various tests or examinations done to determine what is wrong, such as x-rays, or MRIs, they will be given individual care and attention, and a treatment plan that fits what he specific problem is, whether that is surgery, medication, etc. If someone goes to the GP with an alcohol or drugs problem, they will most likely be given a phone number for a charity.

Addiction is a horrible insidious disease that ruins lives; not just the addicts lives, but their family's and other loved ones'.

Like other illnesses, it requires medical professionals who understand the disease, individual treatment, a new plan when the first one doesn't work, and a variety of alternatives available to medical professionals. Not the phone number for a charity. Or the medication that GPs sometimes prescribe, which is unlikely to be successful without long term counselling and therapy.

[al_yrpal]

The people I am talking about have had expert help, been on programmes but have gone back to addiction and landed up back on the street. In my long life I have close friends and relatives with addictions. Drugs, alcoholism and gambling. A close friend died. Addiction is a demon. Dont try to pretend that 'them' are witholding help. Thats just politically inspired hyp. Addictions sre hard to tackle and people often slide back and sometimes end up on the pavement, its a fact.

Al

[reohn2]

The people I am talking about have had expert help, been on programmes but have gone back to addiction and landed up back on the street. In my long life I have close friends and relatives with addictions. Drugs, alcoholism and gambling. A close friend died. Addiction is a demon. Dont try to pretend that 'them' are witholding help. Thats just politically inspired hyp. Addictions sre hard to tackle and people often slide back and sometimes end up on the pavement, its a fact.

Al

Homelessness has doubled as severe LA cuts have been implemented since this government came to power in 2010,fact.
People on the street are more likely to have addictions such as drink or drugs to dull the pain of a hopeless life.
Mental health is the cinderella of the the NHS and has been for years.
Selling off social housing and not providing decent housing for the poorest in society,or providing bad housing such as Grenfell tower or overpriced private rented accommodation paid for by housing benefit has been the way of the Neoliberalist trickledown theory since the early 80's,it doesn't work!

[al_yrpal]

Yeah yeah, we heard it all ad infinitum, blame the government, its the easy way out. Its not us its 'them'. Rings in your ears in many parts of Britain. You can actually help by doing your small bit which is what I do. If all the moaners got up off their backsides... Pigs might fly.

Al

[reohn2]

Yeah yeah, we heard it all ad infinitum, blame the government, its the easy way out. Its not us its 'them'. Rings in your ears in many parts of Britain. You can actually help by doing your small bit which is what I do. If all the moaners got up off their backsides... Pigs might fly.

Al

The government is making life more difficult than it already is for people at the bottom of the pile by shifting the blame of societies ills on to them and cutting benefits,hence the scroungers line so often fed to the public whilst at the same time tax cuts are given to the rich.
Your attitude just reinforces that stance,whilst at the same time blaming people who are complaining about it by telling them to get off their backsides and do something,when you know nothing about those people you admonish for in your myopic and ignorant view are doing nothing,and at the same timey blaming the homeless for their addictions
If that is your attitude to the homeless and those who complain of their plight its a poor one IMHO.

[old_windbag]

People on the street are more likely to have addictions such as drink or drugs to dull the pain of a hopeless life.
Mental health is the cinderella of the the NHS and has been for years.

Some on the streets may well be mentally ill and fallen through the net or even refused the help offered for whatever reason. But for those not in that situation the concept of a hopeless life is only there if you constantly compare yourself to those around and think that their way of life is the norm or what you should strive for.

We come into this world with nothing and shall take nothing out, in between it's our background that tends to have the biggest influence on where we end off in the social structure we've created. If people were able to break from that thinking then I'm sure many could live homeless, contented and free from the chains of modern life and living from the land( even bartering labor for small amounts of money for clothes/spares ). But perhaps these people do exist and we just don't see them. A bike would be a huge bonus but travelling by foot is how we were made. Having basic tools and general bushcraft skills I think would be the key. It wouldn't be an easy life nor perhaps as long as those in comfy homes but you would be free to go wherever your feet take you within reason and could be more fulfilled at the end of your life than many in the society you aspired too. I think in effect living a nomadic existence which may be the standard way of life for a lot of the worlds population.

The problem I think though lies deeper in the psychology of the people involved, outside of those who are deemed mentally ill. Humans can be their own worst enemies and we will all know people who never tell the full story and try to blame everything around for their situation. Thats not political, it's the human condition unfortunately. But if we created huge homeless hostels, state run, with all amenities( like student halls of residence ) I'm sure that would be viewed with cynicism, even though it would be the way forward. Even if such were created what do we do with those who abuse that help?

[Cyril Haearn]

So almost anyone could lose their home quite quickly through a combination of *bad luck*, even people who think they are (financially) secure. Mental health problems are not to be underestimated either, think of successful happy people who have taken their own lives

I am happy to pay taxes to so others have somewhere to stay

[al_yrpal]

if we created huge homeless hostels, state run, with all amenities( like student halls of residence ) I'm sure that would be viewed with cynicism, even though it would be the way forward. Even if such were created what do we do with those who abuse that help?

If its due to a mental illness that is very difficult, but it shouldnt stop us trying. I feel that a single local point of help with the constant presence of a staff of professionals would give some sort of constancy and stability. I hate going to the Doctors and seeing different people all the time. With this sort of illness there needs to be an anchor point that knows the patient well and can monitor their progress or otherwise.

Al

[thirdcrank]

Re the housing crisis:-

I see that the both chairman and the head of the remuneration committee at housebuilders Persimmon have been ditched as the result of providing too large a trough for the directors, especially the chief executive who is apparently in line to touch a share incentive said to be worth £109,000,000. This is because the incentive scheme was not capped. Last year, he was "only" paid £647,747 + bonus of £1,247,000.

The payout is particularly controversial as Persimmon's profits have been boosted by the Govenment's Help to Buy programme, which allows new-build homes to be bought with a 5pc deposit. This scheme finances 50pc of the homes (Persimmon) builds and sells, the highest of any major housebuilder, partly due to its lower average selling price of £213,000.

(This is from the Daily Telegraph Business section dated 16/12/2017 which I cannot link.)

It's the money men at the big financial institutions that have been upset by this largesse, not the govt., which seems to have funded it.

[Cyril Haearn]

Re the housing crisis:-

I see that the both chairman and the head of the remuneration committee at housebuilders Persimmon have been ditched as the result of providing too large a trough for the directors, especially the chief executive who is apparently in line to touch a share incentive said to be worth £109,000,000. This is because the incentive scheme was not capped. Last year, he was "only" paid £647,747 + bonus of £1,247,000.

The payout is particularly controversial as Persimmon's profits have been boosted by the Govenment's Help to Buy programme, which allows new-build homes to be bought with a 5pc deposit. This scheme finances 50pc of the homes (Persimmon) builds and sells, the highest of any major housebuilder, partly due to its lower average selling price of £213,000.

(This is from the Daily Telegraph Business section dated 16/12/2017 which I cannot link.)

It's the money men at the big financial institutions that have been upset by this largesse, not the govt., which seems to have funded it.

Another new word, *trough*, knew what it meant without a dictionary, +1

[bigjim]

Do you think all the homeless have some sort of illness or mental problem? I don't.
I was homeless for a while in my youth. My own fault as I enjoyed the pub too much and was hopeless at managing my money. Young and stupid.
I did though manage it differently than many of the homeless I come across today. I didn't live on the streets. I actually slept in an abandoned car on a piece of scrap land in the depths of winter. I covered myself in newspaper as the snow fell. We got quite heavy snow in those days. I can't recall being particularly unhappy. I just got on with it and never blamed anybody else for my situation. The big difference for me was that I had a job. No benefits or begging. I got up went into work and drove a truck for basic pay. I didn't have access to it at night otherwise I would have slept in it. I used the works washrooms for my ablutions. Nobody ever knew I was homeless. At night I sat in the pub, spending precious money to keep warm and buying fish n chips for sustenance. It can become a vicious circle. I eventually saved just enough money for a deposit on a grotty bedsit, though went hungry for a while.
I have my own views on todays homeless, but to expose them here may create too much vitriol from others and will descend into arguing. Not worth it.

[Vorpal]

The people I am talking about have had expert help, been on programmes but have gone back to addiction and landed up back on the street. In my long life I have close friends and relatives with addictions. Drugs, alcoholism and gambling. A close friend died. Addiction is a demon. Dont try to pretend that 'them' are witholding help. Thats just politically inspired hyp. Addictions sre hard to tackle and people often slide back and sometimes end up on the pavement, its a fact.

Al

I don't deny that addictions are hard to tackle and some people end up 'on the pavement' or dying from their disease.

But I've lost a friend because she didn't get get proper help despite asking for it. She was referred to a charity for counselling, and her counsellor said she should be in residential treatment. Her family tried various means to get her a referral on the NHS, but were told her case wasn't 'severe' enough to warrant it. They and she tried various other things. They took out private insurance, only to be told they had to have been on the plan for certain amount of time before they would pay for inpatient treatment. Her parents refinanced their house to pay for private treatment; her place was available for her days too late.

I've know others to report that their GPs didn't understand what they needed, and they, or their family got help from charities that pointed them in the right direction, even if they did eventually get help on the NHS.

Do I blame the government? Yes. Mental health in general is poorly dealt with. Even something that is relatively common, like depression, is misunderstood, and often mistreated. I think well of the NHS, but this is one area where they need to make improvements. Instead, with regard to addiction in particular, it is getting worse. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 30673.html