Manchester

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Boyd
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Re: Manchester

Postby Boyd » 5 Jun 2017, 9:37am

reohn2 wrote:
Boyd wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Who's making excuses for it?
Trying to understand the why of it and our own collective part in it, may lead to the solving off it.

I have no collective part in it. Non whatsoever. When an extremist Muslim reads post from the liberal left what they see is support for there views. "our own collective part in it" says we created the terrorism. You supply them with excuses.

Whatever you prefer to believe,we ARE part of it.Your rant is that of "we can do no wrong,they do all the wrong".
Nothing can be further from the truth,we ARE a collective part of it,all of us in all of it,because we are British.

Being British does not make me guilty of anything. Anything whatsoever. Anymore than present day Germans should take the blame for the Holocaust. If you and the liberal left want to take up self flagellation, that is your problem don't include me.
The point I was making is that it encourages terrorism when you type we are responsible for it.

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meic
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Re: Manchester

Postby meic » 5 Jun 2017, 10:12am

Anymore than present day Germans should take the blame for the Holocaust.


That would be a good parallel if you were discussing somebody who was taking exception to our involvement in the slave trade. A more appropriate parallel would be the legitimacy of bombing the civilians in German cities in order to stop their empire during the second world war.

Though I dont suppose the German civilians accepted that the attacks were justified.
Yma o Hyd

Vorpal
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Re: Manchester

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jun 2017, 10:20am

Boyd wrote:
Vorpal wrote: How many generation does someone have to live in the UK to be British, then?
.

Have a walk down Cheetham hill in Manchester. Look at how the men dress and how the women are forced to dress. See how many speak English. Get on a bus with a dog stand near one of them. I wonder what they shout at me?
When will they they be British? For a large proportion of Muslims, no time soon. They will never see themselves as British. They don't want to, they prefer to have nothing to do with the infidel. I wonder what parts of Britain will have Sharia law first? I am of course ignoring the 100 or so sharia courts that already exist.

Just because a woman wears a hajib or a burkha doesn't mean she is forced to. Dressing like that, speaking another language, whatever reaction you see to dogs; these things are not because they are Muslim.

There is nothing in Islam that requires people to cover up completely. Many women wear it as an expression of spirituality. Not very different than a nun in habit. I think in current cultural conditions, it takes a fair amount of bravery to wear such a thing in public in a Western country.

I don't think it is reasonable for you to ascribe motives and desire to people that you do not know and have not spoken to. *all* of the British Muslims I know are citizens, contribute to their communities, send their children to British schools, etc. I expect that most are like that, and only a tiny minority even struggle with idea of living amongst infidels, let alone wish to have nothing to do with them.

Do you really think that because people speak another language among themselves that they do not know and have made no effort to learn English?

I walk around shopping centres in Norway speaking English with family. We also have some British friends, here. Should we use Norwegian among oursleves and with them, instead? Even thought Mr. V struggles with the language?

Where there are Muslims, there is Sharia. Praying five times each day is Sharia. Despite what is wrritten in some media int he UK there are no Sharia courts in the UK. Some mosques offer Sharia services, such as arbitration, Islamic divorce, advice and marriage counselling. People who use these services (such as divorce or arbitration) still have to go through British legal processes in order for anything to be legally binding.

Did you know that there have been religious courts in the UK for centuries? British Jews have used Beth Din for centuries in the UK for similar purposes of settling civil disputes. English law states that any third party can arbitrate in a dispute, if it is agreed by the parties involved. There is no reason that either a Sharia council or Beth Din cannot do this.

And courts have sometimes found very differently from Islamic arbitration (e.g. in distrubtion of property in a divorce). Worrying about 'Sharia Law' is nothing more than fear mongering. Ask a Muslim.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

thirdcrank
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Re: Manchester

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Jun 2017, 10:31am

Boyd wrote: ... When will they they be British? ...


The great majority and their ancestors will have been British Subjects since the days when the sun never set on the British Empire and a globe of the world was more than half red.

reohn2
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Re: Manchester

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jun 2017, 10:40am

Boyd wrote:Being British does not make me guilty of anything. Anything whatsoever.[/quote ]
Check our very recent history,no need to go back too far just 30 years or so,with regards to world affairs particularly in Africa and the Arab countries.
Because you live in a parliamentary democracy you have a vote,because of that vote whether you use it or not you play a small part in the government's foreign policy,whether you agree with it or not.
That makes you directly part of the problems the government has created.

Anymore than present day Germans should take the blame for the Holocaust.[/quote ]
I think you'll find present day Germans are very aware of their past, much more than present day British are and recognise their country's part in the mayhem it created,hence it's more balanced approach to world affairs and being prepared to make amends in the global community,unlike the UK that can't seem to grasp that it's part of the whole but still sees itself as the centre of the known world as it clings on to it's imperialist past.

If you and the liberal left want to take up self flagellation, that is your problem don't include me

I've no intention of taking up self flagellation,I'll leave that to the extremists :wink: .
But I will recognise my country's abject failings in foreign affairs and being the USA's Poodle in the pursuit of oil and mineral wealth in foreign countries were it's blundered and murdering those countries citizens after setting in place murderous dictators it thought suited our needs,and when they got too big for their boots caused further mayhem by creating civil wars or declaring wars after letting those dictators invade surrounding countries,or claiming they had created WMD's when UN weapons inspectors point blank told the coalition forces there were non.
So please don't think you can distance yourself from your country's abominations,whilst at the same time pointing to others who's crime is that they don't dress like you or speak like you,or claiming Muslim women are forced to dress as they do,BTW have you ever considered where the driving force comes from for the way western women dress?

The point I was making is that it encourages terrorism when you type we are responsible for it


No it doesn't,what encourages terrorism is oppression,something the UK and USA has has made a hobby of especially in Africa and the Arab world in it's pursuit of wealth in the form of oil and minerals.
Just check out where all the mineral wealth is in Africa or Afganistan and or the oil rich Arab countries,and check out the population's living conditions in those countries,then check out which companies are extracting that oil and minerals and the profits they're making.

There is non so blind as them that won't see
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Boyd
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Re: Manchester

Postby Boyd » 5 Jun 2017, 10:58am

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -law-women
The latter is from the Guardian and there are many more.

When you are part of a separate community the religious law is the only law.
Are muslim women are never forced to wear the burka?
Why would any woman choose to dress that way? With a slit covered with the equivalent of net curtain just so you can't see there eyes. Oh the black gloves so you can't see their hands.
"An expression of spirituality" what's spirtual about it? Different from a nun who is part of religious order. It is not that long ago that the liberal left were screaming and shouting about women being expected to wear a scarf in a Catholic church. It is a staggering that the oppression of women is wholly acceptable to the liberal left. Battery running low!!

reohn2
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Re: Manchester

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jun 2017, 2:45pm

Boyd wrote:http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -law-women
The latter is from the Guardian and there are many more.

When you are part of a separate community the religious law is the only law.
Are muslim women are never forced to wear the burka?
Why would any woman choose to dress that way? With a slit covered with the equivalent of net curtain just so you can't see there eyes. Oh the black gloves so you can't see their hands.
"An expression of spirituality" what's spirtual about it? Different from a nun who is part of religious order. It is not that long ago that the liberal left were screaming and shouting about women being expected to wear a scarf in a Catholic church. It is a staggering that the oppression of women is wholly acceptable to the liberal left. Battery running low!!

It may come as a bit of a surprise to you that the burka although worn by mainly Muslim women, isn't an Islamic law but cultural law.
As for Sharia law,it only has any credence within some sects of Islam and doesn't superseeded any UK legal law in any way.
You may wish to look at to some sects within other religions Christianity not withstanding and the laws/codes that they adhere to before condemning only some of the sects within Islam.
You might want to ask yourself why there are so many Saudi Arabia funded Mosques in the UK
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fishfright
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Re: Manchester

Postby fishfright » 5 Jun 2017, 3:09pm

When your homes and communities are attacked from the air by planes and drones and you have no way of protecting yourselves or fighting back how long would you let this continue before you felt driven to act ?

How many friends and family would you let die without you act in the only way open to you?

When the Wests leaders demonise your beliefs on a near continuous basis while your brothers are being bombed with no way of predicting when and why when would you feel driven to strike back ?

We in this country fill threads daily with ill informed idiocy and bigotry while the media pumps out hate daily.

Our government strips funding from the very organisations meant to protect us from this and yet people still vote for them ???

This hasn't been happening for a short time on one or two area's but for years over an entire region that are bound together by 2 sects of a major world religion.

We are reaping the whirlwind.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Manchester

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jun 2017, 4:06pm

fishfright wrote:When your homes and communities are attacked from the air by planes and drones and you have no way of protecting yourselves or fighting back how long would you let this continue before you felt driven to act ?

How many friends and family would you let die without you act in the only way open to you?

When the Wests leaders demonise your beliefs on a near continuous basis while your brothers are being bombed with no way of predicting when and why when would you feel driven to strike back ?

We in this country fill threads daily with ill informed idiocy and bigotry while the media pumps out hate daily.

Our government strips funding from the very organisations meant to protect us from this and yet people still vote for them ???

This hasn't been happening for a short time on one or two area's but for years over an entire region that are bound together by 2 sects of a major world religion.

We are reaping the whirlwind.

Nail,Head,On!
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blackbike
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Re: Manchester

Postby blackbike » 5 Jun 2017, 4:30pm

After the Salman Rushdie affair I can understand why people don't speak out.

reohn2
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Re: Manchester

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jun 2017, 5:56pm

blackbike wrote:After the Salman Rushdie affair I can understand why people don't speak out.

Care to elaborate,preferably in an non hysterical Fashion?
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Ben@Forest
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Re: Manchester

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Jun 2017, 6:16pm

fishfright wrote:When your homes and communities are attacked from the air by planes and drones and you have no way of protecting yourselves or fighting back how long would you let this continue before you felt driven to act ?

How many friends and family would you let die without you act in the only way open to you?

This appears to ignore the fact that many of those responsible for attacks in this country ARE from homes and communities here. They have not been attacked by drones or planes. And it appears the bomber responsible for the Manchester attack was from a family which had fled Libya because they were persecuted for their Islamic beliefs there.

Someone in this country may despair of Western policies towards the Middle East but that is not a rationale to strap on a bomb. And the Middle East's own rulers share the blame - they have consistently refused their own people good governance, equality, education and decent prospects.

reohn2
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Re: Manchester

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jun 2017, 7:04pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
fishfright wrote:When your homes and communities are attacked from the air by planes and drones and you have no way of protecting yourselves or fighting back how long would you let this continue before you felt driven to act ?

How many friends and family would you let die without you act in the only way open to you?

This appears to ignore the fact that many of those responsible for attacks in this country ARE from homes and communities here. They have not been attacked by drones or planes. And it appears the bomber responsible for the Manchester attack was from a family which had fled Libya because they were persecuted for their Islamic beliefs there.

Someone in this country may despair of Western policies towards the Middle East but that is not a rationale to strap on a bomb. And the Middle East's own rulers share the blame - they have consistently refused their own people good governance, equality, education and decent prospects.

Like it or not these home grown terrorists ally themselves with the people whose homelands have been decimated by this country's actions in those countries and who's albeit twisted and perverted understanding of their religion is the basis for their actions.
We simply cannot keep claiming there is no connection with the UK's foreign policies and these terrorists attacks.

Once again I feel the need to condemn these heinous attacks on innocent people,but we also must try to recognise why it is these terrorists do what they do
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Vorpal
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Re: Manchester

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jun 2017, 9:33pm

Boyd wrote:http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -law-women
The latter is from the Guardian and there are many more.

Billion Bibles is about as biased a source as you could find. This was published by folks who believe that Allah is a moon god and Muslims are literally the devil incarnate.

As for the Guardian article, it makes some good points. I personally have mixed feeling about it. My previous point was merely that such things have been in use in the UK for centuries. It's not perfect, but it's not reasonable to allow Beth Din, and not a sharia council. If it is to be allowed, perhaps it is appropriate to implement additional safeguards for women. If it is not to be allowed, then what sort of arbitration is acceptable? Should it be clearly defined? Arbitrators approved by the government? Can no one go to a religious leader for arbitration?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Freddie
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Re: Manchester

Postby Freddie » 5 Jun 2017, 11:46pm

Ben@Forest wrote:This appears to ignore the fact that many of those responsible for attacks in this country ARE from homes and communities here. They have not been attacked by drones or planes. And it appears the bomber responsible for the Manchester attack was from a family which had fled Libya because they were persecuted for their Islamic beliefs there.
Furthermore, it also omits the fact that something like 80% of Islamic terrorism is carried out in Muslim majority countries, many victims (likely a majority) being Muslims. It seems an odd way to signal your disapproval of western intervention, by blowing up non-western Muslims, Christians and assorted others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_I ... tacks#2017

Is there a way to explain these attacks as caused by, and in retaliation to, western foreign policy?

As we all know, the Middle East was nothing but a land of unending peace, before westerners came. Equality, Tolerance and Diversity (the one true religion) was professed everywhere you went. People were blind to creed and colour and there was no motivation to violence of any sort, until the wicked white man inculcated the 'Noble Savage' into his spiteful and vengeful ways.

I wouldn't be surprised if these terror attacks in Muslim majority countries were all cooked up by western governments desperate to throw us off the one true answer to what could be the only motivation for all so-called Islamic terrorism (likewise the 'so-called Islamic State' and 'so-called IRA'), that of western intervention. Who do they think they are fooling?