pwa wrote:The truth is we are allying ourselves to the USA, in spite of the moron they currently have as their leader. We have to think beyond him. He has eight years in the job at the most. It will seem like a long time, but the day will come when he goes. Hang on to that thought.
You don't ally yourself with wrong however 'special' you think your relationship is with someone,IMHO the UK needs a complete rethink on it's policy with the US whilst it's being run by a moron,because it's being run by a moron. Trump is isolating himself more by the day,and it's about time we withdrew our support of him,not the USA,but him.Whilst he's in charge anything can happen such is his ego trip,and as long as the UK remains on his leash we'll be seen by the world as his Poodle. The Bexiteers among us keep spouting about claiming back sovereignty yet are so willing to be beholding to a moron leader for trade deals that we already have with Europe,you won't agree with this but the only reason the EU referendum got the slim majority it did was because of immigration,without even a thought of the true cost to the UK in many other aspects of our country's future,and now we court morons for trade deals and continue to ally ourselves with a climate change denier and who's previous leaders foreign policies in the middle east and Africa were a disgrace.
We don't ally ourselves with Trump. We ally ourselves with the USA. That is different.....
I agree that what you say is the better way of doing things. Except May is trying to do a Thatcher-Ragan deal and is allying herself (and the UK) to Trump rather than the US. She is supporting his commentary, his actions, etc. rather than US actions.
reohn2 wrote: You don't ally yourself with wrong however 'special' you think your relationship is with someone,IMHO the UK needs a complete rethink on it's policy with the US whilst it's being run by a moron,because it's being run by a moron. Trump is isolating himself more by the day,and it's about time we withdrew our support of him,not the USA,but him.Whilst he's in charge anything can happen such is his ego trip,and as long as the UK remains on his leash we'll be seen by the world as his Poodle. The Bexiteers among us keep spouting about claiming back sovereignty yet are so willing to be beholding to a moron leader for trade deals that we already have with Europe,you won't agree with this but the only reason the EU referendum got the slim majority it did was because of immigration,without even a thought of the true cost to the UK in many other aspects of our country's future,and now we court morons for trade deals and continue to ally ourselves with a climate change denier and who's previous leaders foreign policies in the middle east and Africa were a disgrace.
We don't ally ourselves with Trump. We ally ourselves with the USA. That is different.....
I agree that what you say is the better way of doing things. Except May is trying to do a Thatcher-Ragan deal and is allying herself (and the UK) to Trump rather than the US. She is supporting his commentary, his actions, etc. rather than US actions.
Ian
It seems to me that she feels rather awkward having to be nice to him, and she is doing it with some distaste. She is not supporting everything he does, though she is trying to avoid direct criticism. In this dynamic we have to see silence as an indication of disapproval. As with the climate stuff where we will continue to stick with Paris whilst not directly attacking Trump. I suppose it is a kind of pragmatic tact. I think we are just riding out this storm, hoping for better days when the buffoon has gone.
pwa wrote: It seems to me that she feels rather awkward having to be nice to him, and she is doing it with some distaste. She is not supporting everything he does, though she is trying to avoid direct criticism. In this dynamic we have to see silence as an indication of disapproval. As with the climate stuff where we will continue to stick with Paris whilst not directly attacking Trump. I suppose it is a kind of pragmatic tact. I think we are just riding out this storm, hoping for better days when the buffoon has gone.
Pragmatism only goes so far and IMO Trump's waaaayyy past that milestone,I'd rather call a spade a spade rather than a digging implement of undeterminate nature TBH,its probably why I'm not a rich man,but at least I sleep well at night.
Last edited by reohn2 on 6 Jun 2017, 12:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
francovendee wrote:She's desperately aware that the 'NO Deal' will actually happen and she hopes Trump will offer some trade deals. When Trump shouts sh1t May jumps on the shovel.
We need to be pragmatic. It will be good for our economy if we can increase trade with the USA, so we do want to do business with them. For that reason it would be indulgent and risky for our government to join the rest of us in declaring Trump to be the moron he clearly is.
But our trade tariffs with the US are already very low so financially it wont have a big impact. And does anybody really believe Trump can offer UK lower tariffs given all his rhetoric about "exporting US jobs overseas". Whatever the reality of things being better for the US with more trade, reality is not a major factor in the US these days and Trump has been outspoken about "exporting US jobs overseas" that there is no way we can get a good deal from the US (and any deal will undoubtedly require secret commercial courts, companies suing UK government if they change policy impacting corporate profits ... all the nasties from TTIP will only get more skewed in favour of the US under Trump).
But in reality, trade deals take a long time to negotiate. We are 2 years away from even starting with the US. My guess is it is unlikely May will fight another election as Conservative leader after this one and I have doubts about Trump having a 2nd term so most of any trade deal will be under very different leadership anyway.
pwa wrote: We don't ally ourselves with Trump. We ally ourselves with the USA. That is different.....
I agree that what you say is the better way of doing things. Except May is trying to do a Thatcher-Ragan deal and is allying herself (and the UK) to Trump rather than the US. She is supporting his commentary, his actions, etc. rather than US actions.
Ian
It seems to me that she feels rather awkward having to be nice to him, and she is doing it with some distaste. She is not supporting everything he does, though she is trying to avoid direct criticism. In this dynamic we have to see silence as an indication of disapproval. As with the climate stuff where we will continue to stick with Paris whilst not directly attacking Trump. I suppose it is a kind of pragmatic tact. I think we are just riding out this storm, hoping for better days when the buffoon has gone.
In the case of the US pulling out of Paris Agreement she did make comments. Many other European leaders condemned the move whilst May just said that the US has the right to pull-out (and strictly speaking she was not correct as they are committed for several more years before they can pull-out) - which most saw as supporting Trump's move.
She has also been accused of being Trump's mole in the EU after she tried (unsuccessfully) to water down EU climate commitments.
Does anyone think that May sees things as Trump does? I don't. I don't think anyone does. And when she says the USA has a right to determine their own policies on this or that, what she is clearly doing is avoiding expressing her own views which, if expressed, would be critical. The USA has a political leader who tweets every little demented thought he has, with no pause for reflection. May does the opposite.
pwa wrote:Does anyone think that May sees things as Trump does? I don't. I don't think anyone does. And when she says the USA has a right to determine their own policies on this or that, what she is clearly doing is avoiding expressing her own views which, if expressed, would be critical. The USA has a political leader who tweets every little demented thought he has, with no pause for reflection. May does the opposite.
Reading between the lines you clearly see the USA as a preferable trading partner to the much closer Europe. And I wonder why?
I am quite the opposite as I am sure you know!
But if I am right and that is the case I am curious as to why? Genuinely interested.
My own position is that I feel closer culturally to Europe and I prefer their foriegn and domestic politics. I think they are more "green" politically and agriculturally overall too.
pwa wrote:Does anyone think that May sees things as Trump does? I don't. I don't think anyone does. And when she says the USA has a right to determine their own policies on this or that, what she is clearly doing is avoiding expressing her own views which, if expressed, would be critical. The USA has a political leader who tweets every little demented thought he has, with no pause for reflection. May does the opposite.
Reading between the lines you clearly see the USA as a preferable trading partner to the much closer Europe. And I wonder why?
I am quite the opposite as I am sure you know!
But if I am right and that is the case I am curious as to why? Genuinely interested.
My own position is that I feel closer culturally to Europe and I prefer their foriegn and domestic politics. I think they are more "green" politically and agriculturally overall too.
All IMHO.
To keep it brief, I prefer to trade without having to also allow citizens of our trading partners the automatic right to set up home in the UK. But that is for another thread, surely.
pwa wrote:Does anyone think that May sees things as Trump does? I don't. I don't think anyone does. And when she says the USA has a right to determine their own policies on this or that, what she is clearly doing is avoiding expressing her own views which, if expressed, would be critical. The USA has a political leader who tweets every little demented thought he has, with no pause for reflection. May does the opposite.
Whilst Trump tweets his soundbites,May speaks hers in public meetings and when she's questioned on those soundbites either avoids the question or repeats the soundbites again ad nausum. She has U turned on two previous major policies,one on social care and one Nat Instead payments in the very short time she's been in charge These and her previous track record in government gives me no confidence or trust in practically anything she utters! I'm just listening to JV on Radio 2 shreading yet another Tory minister who yet again isn't answering questions put him just trying to discredit Labour with broadest daubs of any yard brush that comes to hand without any specifics whatsoever
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pwa wrote:Does anyone think that May sees things as Trump does? I don't. I don't think anyone does. And when she says the USA has a right to determine their own policies on this or that, what she is clearly doing is avoiding expressing her own views which, if expressed, would be critical. The USA has a political leader who tweets every little demented thought he has, with no pause for reflection. May does the opposite.
Reading between the lines you clearly see the USA as a preferable trading partner to the much closer Europe. And I wonder why?
I am quite the opposite as I am sure you know!
But if I am right and that is the case I am curious as to why? Genuinely interested.
My own position is that I feel closer culturally to Europe and I prefer their foriegn and domestic politics. I think they are more "green" politically and agriculturally overall too.
All IMHO.
To keep it brief, I prefer to trade without having to also allow citizens of our trading partners the automatic right to set up home in the UK. But that is for another thread, surely.
Indeed another thread!
But it is now clear! I thank you for your forthright answer.
I would merely say that firstly it works the other way of course. And it is a requirement of free trade. By and large those people have been good honest additions to the UK. IMV.
Immigration from elsewhere, which has been culturally more fraught with problems will not be halted by our Brexit. But hey it's another thread and I too am tired of the wrangling.
reohn2 wrote:His attack on Sadiq Khan is nothing short of the rantings of a idiotic buffoon in charge of the most powerful nation on the planet! Worth discussing?
I think President Trump has highlighted Sadiq Khan's complacency.
And as Khan has felt free to call Trump ignorant I don't think he can be too offended about the president's robust comments about him.
See this tweet from before the two recent attacks on London by Islamic terrorists.
PDQ Mobile wrote:Reading between the lines you clearly see the USA as a preferable trading partner to the much closer Europe. And I wonder why?
I am quite the opposite as I am sure you know!
But if I am right and that is the case I am curious as to why? Genuinely interested.
My own position is that I feel closer culturally to Europe and I prefer their foriegn and domestic politics. I think they are more "green" politically and agriculturally overall too.
All IMHO.
To keep it brief, I prefer to trade without having to also allow citizens of our trading partners the automatic right to set up home in the UK. But that is for another thread, surely.
Indeed another thread!
But it is now clear! I thank you for your forthright answer.
I would merely say that firstly it works the other way of course. And it is a requirement of free trade. By and large those people have been good honest additions to the UK. IMV.
Immigration from elsewhere, which has been culturally more fraught with problems will not be halted by our Brexit. But hey it's another thread and I too am tired of the wrangling.
I think I'll move to Bhutan!!l
I'm not against all immigration and I don't expect it to slow down dramatically in the short term, but in the longer term I want the number of people leaving the UK to be roughly the same as the number coming in. To avoid stupidly high population growth. I don't see any reason why trade deals should mean loss of control over immigration. That is a stupid EU idea. I have nothing against individual immigrants and I wish them all the best.
To keep it tidy, perhaps it would be better to respond to this comment, if at all, on the Brexit thread.
reohn2 wrote:His attack on Sadiq Khan is nothing short of the rantings of a idiotic buffoon in charge of the most powerful nation on the planet! Worth discussing?
I think President Trump has highlighted Sadiq Khan's complacency.
And as Khan has felt free to call Trump ignorant I don't think he can be too offended about the president's robust comments about him.
See this tweet from before the two recent attacks on London by Islamic terrorists.
DBfC5xmWAAA6ozy.jpg
Just what planet do you come from? Sadiq Khan's tweet is spot on and Trump's is ridiculously crass and totally out of context which seems to have gone right over your head,really please if this is the best you can come up with best keep quiet. Sorry if that reads like a personal attack,it's not,it's an attack on your persistent extreme and inflammatory right wing views which for the most part have no place in any sane discussion on the topic!
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2 wrote:His attack on Sadiq Khan is nothing short of the rantings of a idiotic buffoon in charge of the most powerful nation on the planet! Worth discussing?
I think President Trump has highlighted Sadiq Khan's complacency.
And as Khan has felt free to call Trump ignorant I don't think he can be too offended about the president's robust comments about him.
See this tweet from before the two recent attacks on London by Islamic terrorists.
DBfC5xmWAAA6ozy.jpg
Actually, if you took just 3 seconds to read the tweet you posted you'll see Khan was talking about Trump's view of Islam and was not calling him an ignorant. And ignorant person (in a general context) is very different from holding ignorant views on a specific subject (i.e. the individual is ignorant of the facts). In Khan's tweet he is commenting of Trump's views of Islam. Surprised you can't see the difference.
pwa wrote:Does anyone think that May sees things as Trump does? I don't. I don't think anyone does. And when she says the USA has a right to determine their own policies on this or that, what she is clearly doing is avoiding expressing her own views which, if expressed, would be critical. The USA has a political leader who tweets every little demented thought he has, with no pause for reflection. May does the opposite.
But senior politicians are regularly telling us how we "speak frankly and honestly as friends" to others. So why not the US. My own interpretation of May's comments is that she is trying to repeat the Thatcher-Regan relationship and she is again putting the UK in a subservient position, clearly indicating the UK will do what the US wants, when the US wants, how the US wants, when the US wants.
I do think in some areas May's opinions are aligned with Trump's.
