Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

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Tangled Metal
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Tangled Metal »

It doesn't have to be flat doors but could he internal doors propped open in the daytime and never closed at night. I'm not saying I believe it to be contributory.

Open fire doors do not slow down the spread of fires. A fire that's not controlled spreads. If it spreads into the stairwell you've cut people off. The stairwell has features that protect it to allow for protected escape of residents.

The advise to stay put implies it's a certain construction. That is it's compartmentalized such that the building is designed to contain the fire to as small a space as possible. One flat, one corner of the building, one floor, etc. It's one tactic with pro's and con's like any others.

It also implies that its fire protection is based on passive protection not active. Active is sprinklers and other features. Passive as I understand it is about containment of the fire in as controlled a way as possible. Things like no flammable materials in common spaces. Penetrations through walls such as pipes or cable runs have protection. That is things like intumescent surrounds that swell up with heat to close the penetration. Sleeves on pipes such that when the fire side pipe softens and falls, thus allowing fire to pass into the hole through the wall, the sleeve drops covering the hole with a fire resistant layer.

It's often the hidden parts of a building that has such penetrations and are a risk of fire spread. It looks like this could be true here with the gap behind the cladding being an issue. BTW it's possible the material choice isn't at fault. The gap can act as a chimney. This could increase the temperature and cause materials to burn strongly that might have lasted longer. This is very much hypothetical. We don't know any facts about what happened despite the speculation. It'll take a thorough investigation for that.

BTW an interesting interview on r4 as I was driving home. The expert was the fire adviser to the government prior to 2015. That's a very senior fire and rescue service officer who's been recruited to advise the government on matters of fire safety. Like the chief scientific officer for fire matters.

He did an initial investigation into the 2009 fire being referred to on here as evidence of this government being negligent, Tory scum :wink: That investigation was to learn initial lessons ahead if the main inquiry so that any lessons needed to be learnt could be passed on to councils and authorities as quickly as possible.

A lot of points were made in this interview. He admitted a lot of similarities but tellingly stopped short of saying sprinklers would have saved lives. He even said sprinklers aren't the best solution/option in these buildings. It depends on each building what is best.

If this expert (and others I've seen on tv) cannot condemn the lack of action on sprinklers then who am I to disagree. Who are you to disagree?
Tangled Metal
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Tangled Metal »

My company started developing a new design of fire due m door (not new tech just new materials). The fire test regime was strict and every element of the door had to/ last or the fire test was a failure. One part failed a minute too soon and a lot of work and expense was wasted. Things like hinges that kind of lock, thresholds that contain intumescent materials to fill the gap at the bottom, same for all around the door. The frame, door, threshold, hinges, window (if present), handle, lock, door closure, etc. There's so much in a door to go wrong.

Then there's cladding. The gap, the facing materials, the supporting structure, the insulation, the substrate it's attached to, the fixings, etc. A lot to go wrong.

Windows, window frames, etc. There's so much to look at before you can determine cause of the spread.

BTW who knows conclusively that the fire didn't spread first by other means? Could the fire have been stopped before reaching the cladding? What went wrong before the cladding. Was the cladding really the main problem? Guesswork while they're still damping down the fire, making the structure safe enough to access and while they send in dogs to detect bodies because it's too unstable to allow humans into the building to investigate.

In the meantime let's speculate, assign blame, make political points and get angry. OK the last one is acceptable.
blackbike
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by blackbike »

As a Guardian columnist says, this disaster is a shameful symbol of a state that didn't care.

That a Guardian writer is now realising that the state is not your friend is perhaps one good thing that has come of this catastrophe.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-not-care
reohn2
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote:I was a Chartered Mechanical and Electrical Engineer designing machinery for mining, power stations, chemical plants, ships etc. In an investigation like this one looks at everything systematically.

The fridge that 'exploded'. Was it old, what make was it, should electrical appliances in a shared block be regularly inspected and approved before you can install them?
The design of the block, should the central staircase be protected by highly fire resistant doors. Should the closers on those doors be regularly checked and inspected. Did the central staircase design contribute to the fire. Was it isolated from the individual flats so that it didn't matter what doors or windows were open. Were there fire drills? Was it right to update it. Should it have been demolished because it was unsafe?
The windows, were they an approved type. Should they have been more fire resistant.
The insulation and it's installation, was it approved by the Building Research station and was it installed properly. Was the right insulation used. Was there a poor compromise between cost and fire resistance?
Why did the fire spread so quickly?

There is a miriad of things to investigate and determine if they contributed to the disaster. One of them happens to be the actions of the occupants.Another is the design decisions old and new. Did they strike the right balance between safety and cost?

A systematic and thorough investigation will take place by suitably qualified and experienced people. It is vital to determine the significance of each factor to prevent future disasters. Jumping to a quick conclusion in a blame game is premature. At this stage it is vital to understand why the disaster happened and spread that knowledge to avoid further disasters.

The why comes first, then comes the who?

Al

FWIW
The ignition was by all accounts caused by a fridge "exploding" what caused that no one knows yet,though power surges have been mention and aren't unheard of in the block.
But wherever the seat of the fire within an apartment,it's what happened afterwards that caused the tragedy,the exterior cladding by all accounts provided an ideal conduit between floors once the fire bridged to it,it's bridge was the destruction of the windows in the apartment where the fire started.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say either the explosion of the fridge either blew out a window or the subsequent fire following the initial explosion/ignition melted the window frame causing the glass to fall out giving much needed oxygen to the fire and it then caught hold of the exterior insulation.
The fire then bridged from floor to floor via that insulation breaking windows or melting frames as it went,which explains the speed with which it travelled.
I have some experience as a mining deputy on fire fighting an prevention.
Once started a fire seeks oxygen and combustible materials to feed on, until you've seen it "search" you'd be amazed how fast it can travel, which can be faster than any man can run given the right conditions.
This fire travelled up the outside of the tower block from 4th floor to 22nd within 30minutes which is PDQ.
It may have also travelled up the staircase too,but would have had nowhere near the same amount of fuel to feed on as it would on the outside as it consumed apartment by apartment as it went,the oxygen was all outside .
On upper floors,I reckon some people may never have even awoke from their beds,and those that made it to the staircase trying to make their way down, would have been overcome by smoke from furniture burning in the apartments on the lower floors,I'm also betting some bodies will be found on the top floor or even on the roof if they could get there.

BTW,Fire doors are either 1/2 or 1 hour rated and must be fitted with door closers,if fire doors a covered in thin steel sheet they extend their fire time by quite a bit,apartment doors treated as such and with intumescent strips around the door frames would slow fire and smoke down considerably longer
Last edited by reohn2 on 15 Jun 2017, 10:41pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Tangled Metal »

BTW fire doors are FD30, FD60, FD90 & FD120. The integrity and stability ratings are the number in minutes that they have been tested to adjusting according to the relevant part of BS 476. The fire test I believe involve creating a panel in front if a large opening to a gas fired furnace. Usually the furnace has a 3m square open side, some also have doors to reduce the open area but I've not seen them.

The testing company or their chosen installers create a fire resistant front to the furnace with the door in the middle. Fire up the furnace with a certain heating ramp. Sensors monitor the temperature. Failure is via many mechanisms. Any single thermocouple in a fixed array on the cold face goes above a certain temperature it fails at that time. Door warps to create a gap larger than permitted dimensions it's a fail. Door fittings fail the time gives the rating.

Test house writes up a report and you get a fire door that you can market as rated to the shortest time before failure, i.e. if it fails at 59 minutes then it is an FD30 door.

Same process for a lot of passive fire protection products. The design if the test feature is supposed to mimic real life installations. Only you get plenty of time to do the perfect installation. Not real life installation at all. Installers can do things like extra ablative paint on pipe protrusions or surrounds.

Despite all this a lot of fire protection does work. When it doesn't lessons need to be found and learnt from.
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horizon
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by horizon »

blackbike wrote:As a Guardian columnist says, this disaster is a shameful symbol of a state that didn't care.

That a Guardian writer is now realising that the state is not your friend is perhaps one good thing that has come of this catastrophe.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-not-care


The state built amazing houses between and after the Wars, cottage style and now of course immensely popular. It is also likely that the Grenfell flats were built to Parker Morris standards in terms of space and amenity. It's another story as to how council house building was hi-jacked by councillors, architects, planners and builders to construct system-built high rise blocks. Despite the number built, the phase lasted only a very short time (about 15 years) as their inadequacies were quickly realised. One aim of the cladding was probably to address the heating and condensation problems experienced in such concrete buildings.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
reohn2
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by reohn2 »

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reohn2
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by reohn2 »

Tangled Metal wrote:BTW fire doors are FD30, FD60, FD90 & FD120...........

FD90 and FD 120 aren't usually for residential properties but mainly for public and industrial properties if my memory is correct.
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francovendee
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by francovendee »

al_yrpal wrote:I was a Chartered Mechanical and Electrical Engineer designing machinery for mining, power stations, chemical plants, ships etc. In an investigation like this one looks at everything systematically.

The fridge that 'exploded'. Was it old, what make was it, should electrical appliances in a shared block be regularly inspected and approved before you can install them?
The design of the block, should the central staircase be protected by highly fire resistant doors. Should the closers on those doors be regularly checked and inspected. Did the central staircase design contribute to the fire. Was it isolated from the individual flats so that it didn't matter what doors or windows were open. Were there fire drills? Was it right to update it. Should it have been demolished because it was unsafe?
The windows, were they an approved type. Should they have been more fire resistant.
The insulation and it's installation, was it approved by the Building Research station and was it installed properly. Was the right insulation used. Was there a poor compromise between cost and fire resistance?
Why did the fire spread so quickly?

There is a miriad of things to investigate and determine if they contributed to the disaster. One of them happens to be the actions of the occupants.Another is the design decisions old and new. Did they strike the right balance between safety and cost?

A systematic and thorough investigation will take place by suitably qualified and experienced people. It is vital to determine the significance of each factor to prevent future disasters. Jumping to a quick conclusion in a blame game is premature. At this stage it is vital to understand why the disaster happened and spread that knowledge to avoid further disasters.

The why comes first, then comes the who?

Al


Al, with your qualifications and experience you must be familiar with an F.M.E.A. ? This should have been carried out prior to any building changes to the tower block, not wait until a terrible disaster happens and then conduct an inquiry.

The 'blame game' won't bring back any lives just as I'm sure no one will end up being prosecuted after an inquiry.

Tower Blocks are as big a risk to lives as any aircraft and the same care in construction and, more importantly, any alterations are made, should the rule.
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Paulatic
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by Paulatic »

I've just read a lot of posts by people who consider themselves experts in one field or another.
My dad told me an
Ex is a has been, and
A Spurt is a drip under pressure.
Not having any expertise myself I've always worked on instinct and knowledge from the university of life which has met my needs.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the experts appear to have faith in an inquiry and that lessons will be learnt. My guess is that any companies involved, that are still solvent, have already engaged the best lawyers in the land. Hillsborough springs to mind whenever someone mentions 'Inquiry '
Myself, I'd go along with the gut fears and concerns voiced and documented, by people living in Grenfell prior to the fire.
My thoughts go out to anyone currently living anywhere in buildings similar to this. How they will be sleeping at night is beyond me. A low point in my life had me living in a tower block, back in the sixties, it wasn't living. When the New Age travellers took to the road in their converted travelling shops I fully understood why.
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

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reohn2
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by reohn2 »

If anyone listened to John Humpries' interview with Saji Javid on radio 4 this morning you'll know that it would have cost an extra £5,000 to clad Grenfell tower block with fire proof cladding,you'll also know that the type of cladding used on Grenfell is banned in the USA on buildings over 40ft high.
Also the recommendations to that effect that landed on Eric Pickles desk when he was in charge in 2013 he did nothing about..........
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al_yrpal
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by al_yrpal »

Franco, yes I am familiar with that, but I believe the updating was simply done in line with Building Regs. That place at Watford should have laid down a strict code, I am surprised that the contractor was allowed to select the insulation, and although it was only combustible at high temperatures that was deemed ok? Apparently the guy whose fridge caught fire left his door open filling the central bit with smoke whilst he warned neighbours. I hope they get the investigation done fast and take steps to identify other risky structures quickly.

Al
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thirdcrank
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by thirdcrank »

You don't need to be much of an expert to know that a fire starting at the bottom of anything will spread to the top more quickly than the other way round. You tend to assume that those responsible for designing and modifying buildings, especially very high ones take that into account. It seems that is not so. I've seen several people being interviewed in the last couple of days brazenly trying to reassure everybody that there is no danger of a recurrence, to the extent that it might be hard to believe that this tragedy had occurred.

IMO somebody needs to get a grip of this very quickly. This has the potential for serious public disorder.
reohn2
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote:........ Apparently the guy whose fridge caught fire left his door open filling the central bit with smoke whilst he warned neighbours....
Al

Are you blaming him for the subsequent Inferno?
Consider this if his door had been fitted with a door closer and it was 1/2 or 1hour fire door fitted with intumescent strips it would've closed automatically behind him and bought time in the (only)staircase which more people could've escaped,but if the cladding hadn't be so combustible the fire wouldn't have jumped floors in the way it did and the fire could've been contained within maybe one flat.
But the major cause of such destruction and lose of life wasn't the resident's fault was It?
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reohn2
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Re: Tower Block Disaster

Post by reohn2 »

thirdcrank wrote:......IMO somebody needs to get a grip of this very quickly. This has the potential for serious public disorder.

Agreed and IMHO the political shift will also be seismic when the truth gets out

Meanwhile loved ones weep and are completely distraught with grief
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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