Tower Block Disaster

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Oct 2018, 11:11am

Vorpal wrote:The ban on cladding is good, https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... far-enough
but doesn't do enough to address flammable cladding on existing buildings
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ace-action

The inquiry, however, seems to be making reasonable progress, even if it quite distressful for survivors
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ble-truths


AIUI, there are a lot of people who own flats leasehold, whose landlords are already charging them for things like round-the-clock cover by fire marshals and have said that they will not pay for the cladding to be removed. I don't think any amount of huffing and puffing by the government will change that. This means there are people living in flats which are both unsafe and worthless without expensive repairs, and in many cases will still have a whacking mortgage outstanding.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16812
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby Vorpal » 5 Oct 2018, 12:18pm

thirdcrank wrote:
Vorpal wrote:The ban on cladding is good, https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... far-enough
but doesn't do enough to address flammable cladding on existing buildings
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ace-action

The inquiry, however, seems to be making reasonable progress, even if it quite distressful for survivors
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ble-truths


AIUI, there are a lot of people who own flats leasehold, whose landlords are already charging them for things like round-the-clock cover by fire marshals and have said that they will not pay for the cladding to be removed. I don't think any amount of huffing and puffing by the government will change that. This means there are people living in flats which are both unsafe and worthless without expensive repairs, and in many cases will still have a whacking mortgage outstanding.

Yeah, that's a pretty good summary of the second article. Although some firms have already taken steps to get cladding replaced at no cost to leaseholders, more haven't than have. :cry:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

reohn2
Posts: 34654
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jun 2019, 6:48pm

2 years on :-
There are still over three hundred blocks in the UK needing the cladding stripping off and replacing
There are 17 families still waiting to be found permanent housing after being promised to be rehouse within weeks of the disaster
The inquiry is still no nearer completion and no one has yet been brought to account.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6332
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby Bonefishblues » 14 Jun 2019, 9:33pm

To be fair, it was said very early on that in a case of this complexity, criminal liability could take several years to establish.

What does puzzle is the continued fitment of unsafe cladding to many such blocks, which cannot be beyond our capability (employing as we do a Government) to resolve, surely?

pete75
Posts: 11185
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby pete75 » 15 Jun 2019, 8:35am

thirdcrank wrote:
Vorpal wrote:The ban on cladding is good, https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... far-enough
but doesn't do enough to address flammable cladding on existing buildings
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ace-action

The inquiry, however, seems to be making reasonable progress, even if it quite distressful for survivors
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ble-truths


AIUI, there are a lot of people who own flats leasehold, whose landlords are already charging them for things like round-the-clock cover by fire marshals and have said that they will not pay for the cladding to be removed. I don't think any amount of huffing and puffing by the government will change that. This means there are people living in flats which are both unsafe and worthless without expensive repairs, and in many cases will still have a whacking mortgage outstanding.


I suppose it depends on the terms of the lease. In many cases the leaseholders are responsible for the costs of replacing the cladding. If they don't want to pay they'll just have to accept the risk.

francovendee
Posts: 838
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby francovendee » 16 Jun 2019, 8:22am

reohn2 wrote:2 years on :-
There are still over three hundred blocks in the UK needing the cladding stripping off and replacing
There are 17 families still waiting to be found permanent housing after being promised to be rehouse within weeks of the disaster
The inquiry is still no nearer completion and no one has yet been brought to account.


I'm afraid that Brexit and the Tory leadership has pushed terrible tragedies like this to the inside pages.
It would be interesting to interview people from the poorer side of Kensington and Chelsea and ask have things improved when dealing with the council on housing.
I lived in the Borough for 10 years in the 60's and doubt there's any change

Mike Sales
Posts: 2504
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby Mike Sales » 16 Jun 2019, 8:29am

francovendee wrote:
I'm afraid that Brexit and the Tory leadership has pushed terrible tragedies like this to the inside pages.
It would be interesting to interview people from the poorer side of Kensington and Chelsea and ask have things improved when dealing with the council on housing.
I lived in the Borough for 10 years in the 60's and doubt there's any change


I see that the RBKC has refused to back a cycle lane.

reohn2
Posts: 34654
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby reohn2 » 16 Jun 2019, 8:31am

pete75 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
Vorpal wrote:The ban on cladding is good, https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... far-enough
but doesn't do enough to address flammable cladding on existing buildings
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ace-action

The inquiry, however, seems to be making reasonable progress, even if it quite distressful for survivors
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ble-truths


AIUI, there are a lot of people who own flats leasehold, whose landlords are already charging them for things like round-the-clock cover by fire marshals and have said that they will not pay for the cladding to be removed. I don't think any amount of huffing and puffing by the government will change that. This means there are people living in flats which are both unsafe and worthless without expensive repairs, and in many cases will still have a whacking mortgage outstanding.


I suppose it depends on the terms of the lease. In many cases the leaseholders are responsible for the costs of replacing the cladding. If they don't want to pay they'll just have to accept the risk.

i believe the people who own such apartments won a court case in Manchester too make the builders pay for the work.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

pete75
Posts: 11185
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby pete75 » 16 Jun 2019, 10:12am

reohn2 wrote:
pete75 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
AIUI, there are a lot of people who own flats leasehold, whose landlords are already charging them for things like round-the-clock cover by fire marshals and have said that they will not pay for the cladding to be removed. I don't think any amount of huffing and puffing by the government will change that. This means there are people living in flats which are both unsafe and worthless without expensive repairs, and in many cases will still have a whacking mortgage outstanding.


I suppose it depends on the terms of the lease. In many cases the leaseholders are responsible for the costs of replacing the cladding. If they don't want to pay they'll just have to accept the risk.

i believe the people who own such apartments won a court case in Manchester too make the builders pay for the work.


This? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... r-47417706 No the leasholders lost but the developers and freehold owners have decided to setup a fund to pay for the work.
At the tribunal which decided the leaseholders should pay the freeholders Pemberstone said it had taken the case to tribunal because while it could "in theory" have tried to seek agreement with leaseholders, it would have been "exceptionally difficult" to reach a unanimous agreement, as about 75% of them did not live in the blocks and some were based abroad.

reohn2
Posts: 34654
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby reohn2 » 16 Jun 2019, 12:45pm

pete75 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
pete75 wrote:
I suppose it depends on the terms of the lease. In many cases the leaseholders are responsible for the costs of replacing the cladding. If they don't want to pay they'll just have to accept the risk.

i believe the people who own such apartments won a court case in Manchester too make the builders pay for the work.


This? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... r-47417706 No the leasholders lost but the developers and freehold owners have decided to setup a fund to pay for the work.
At the tribunal which decided the leaseholders should pay the freeholders Pemberstone said it had taken the case to tribunal because while it could "in theory" have tried to seek agreement with leaseholders, it would have been "exceptionally difficult" to reach a unanimous agreement, as about 75% of them did not live in the blocks and some were based abroad.

Good work finding the link,I was going off what I'd heard on local news a few months ago.It seems there's always wriggle room for people who have the money to pay for the best lawyers :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

pete75
Posts: 11185
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby pete75 » 16 Jun 2019, 2:19pm

reohn2 wrote:
pete75 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:i believe the people who own such apartments won a court case in Manchester too make the builders pay for the work.


This? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... r-47417706 No the leasholders lost but the developers and freehold owners have decided to setup a fund to pay for the work.
At the tribunal which decided the leaseholders should pay the freeholders Pemberstone said it had taken the case to tribunal because while it could "in theory" have tried to seek agreement with leaseholders, it would have been "exceptionally difficult" to reach a unanimous agreement, as about 75% of them did not live in the blocks and some were based abroad.

Good work finding the link,I was going off what I'd heard on local news a few months ago.It seems there's always wriggle room for people who have the money to pay for the best lawyers :?


I don't think it's a case of quality of lawyers but what the terms of the lease are. Leaseholders are generally responsible for external repairs in the same way that home owners are. It seems that 75% of the leaseholders don't live in that tower block presumably having bought the flats to let. Personally I've little or no sympathy for people who buy a property to rent out on a commercial basis and then find they need to spend money on it. It seems the government is now setting up a fund to remove this cladding
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/ne ... ocks-61350
If they're aware of the risks yet not prepared to stump up the cash themselves why should the taxpayer pay to benefit private landlords. Certainly they should be barred from letting the property while the unsafe cladding is in situ.

reohn2
Posts: 34654
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby reohn2 » 16 Jun 2019, 2:58pm

pete75 wrote:
If they're aware of the risks yet not prepared to stump up the cash themselves why should the taxpayer pay to benefit private landlords. Certainly they should be barred from letting the property while the unsafe cladding is in situ.

I totally agree.
Capitalism in action.........
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.