Tower Block Disaster

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jun 2017, 1:44pm

I suppose the problems as with most things where profit overrides everything else is concerned,is "standards"
In the fifth or sixth richest country in the world the UK cannot /will not ensure decent standards of living for all it's citizens as this tragic incident so graphically illustrates but it's just one of many.
As an aside though relative, last night's local TV news ran an article on police numbers.The chief constable of GM police stated categorically that due to a cut of 25% in funding,his workforce had been reduced from 8000 officers to 6000,he could no longer police the GM area effectively and all his officer were restricted to anti terrorist and serious crime duties.

IMHO there is failure of the state to carry out it's duty to the citizens,and though a complex issue it's mainly to do with inefficiency lack enforcement or lack of laws brought about by the state's citizens not paying enough to maintain those laws and politicians at local and national level shirking their duties to the citizens who employ them,because multinational companies dictate the terms by which they operate,that may not be how it appears on paper but it is how it operates.
And so I find myself for once agreeing with Blackbike,no one will ultimately be brought to book I fear and for politicians and business people after a hoohah and a bit of finger pointing it'll be business as usual.
Does anyone remember the Chilcote report :?
Last edited by reohn2 on 15 Jun 2017, 2:07pm, edited 2 times in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 9044
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby al_yrpal » 15 Jun 2017, 1:58pm

Apparently the mods to the building met building regs. Fire officers would have been involved too and would have to approve the design and materials. If a novel cladding method was used it surely should have been fire tested, that's the way engineers normally do things? I cannot believe that it was only the cladding. If internal fire doors were closed as they should been the blaze would have been confined. Were fire doors propped open? There have been many fires in tower blocks they are usually confined. Did people flee leaving front doors open allowing the fire to spread into their flat? The central area was like a chimney any heat would have caused a massive updraft? How can a fire in the cladding penetrate into internal spaces? Apparently residents concerns were ignored! Lots of questions, no answers at the moment...

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

blackbike
Posts: 2492
Joined: 11 Jul 2009, 3:21pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby blackbike » 15 Jun 2017, 2:01pm

bovlomov wrote:
blackbike wrote:Given that this disaster is essentially a public sector one I don't hold out much hope that those responsible will be punished by the criminal law or even disciplined at work.

The management company isn't public sector. Nor were the contractors. You could make a stronger argument against privatisation in the social housing sector.

Although council development supported its share of corruption, the final product tended not to be as crap as modern social housing, both in design and in build quality.



The flats' management company is not a private one.

It is a typical "arm's length" public sector, non-profit organisation with a governing board which consists mainly of residents/tenants and council appointed members.

These organisations were set up by many councils to cut costs, and the staff are usually transferred en masse from the council to them when they are set up.

This disaster has parallels with the care home system in the UK where councils distance themselves from their responsibilities in order to save money while still finding enough cash for nice terms and conditions for their middle class staff at head office.

This is a public sector failure and that's why we'll probably get a whitewash of an inquiry and little else.

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 9044
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby al_yrpal » 15 Jun 2017, 2:03pm

pete75 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:My favourite Uncle was Charter Mayor of a London Borough. I remember him saying in the 1970s that the worse thing he had done in his long career as a Labour councillor was to put people in tower blocks. He was thoroughly ashamed of this aspect of his career in public service. Blaming a particular political party for this mess won't wash. All political parties are equally responsible over a very long period of time. The culprits are clearly the Architects, Engineers and the management company and even then it would seem that there was some sort of unknown and previously unencountered phenomenon at work that caused the building to go up so quickly. Finding out what went wrong and taking rapid steps to safeguard others who live in these awful structures is the positive thing to do right now, not try to score pathetic political points!

Al


Of course not when it's the party you support that is most likely responsible. However if it was the other way around you'd be putting the boot in mightily.


Yet another insulting pathetic quote from Pete no doubt supported by the so called moderator.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

pete75
Posts: 13696
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby pete75 » 15 Jun 2017, 2:09pm

al_yrpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:My favourite Uncle was Charter Mayor of a London Borough. I remember him saying in the 1970s that the worse thing he had done in his long career as a Labour councillor was to put people in tower blocks. He was thoroughly ashamed of this aspect of his career in public service. Blaming a particular political party for this mess won't wash. All political parties are equally responsible over a very long period of time. The culprits are clearly the Architects, Engineers and the management company and even then it would seem that there was some sort of unknown and previously unencountered phenomenon at work that caused the building to go up so quickly. Finding out what went wrong and taking rapid steps to safeguard others who live in these awful structures is the positive thing to do right now, not try to score pathetic political points!

Al


Of course not when it's the party you support that is most likely responsible. However if it was the other way around you'd be putting the boot in mightily.


Yet another insulting pathetic quote from Pete no doubt supported by the so called moderator.

Al


I notice you're not challenging the veracity of what I said.

pete75
Posts: 13696
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby pete75 » 15 Jun 2017, 2:10pm

blackbike wrote:This disaster has parallels with the care home system in the UK where councils distance themselves from their responsibilities in order to save money while still finding enough cash for nice terms and conditions for their middle class staff at head office.



More politics of envy from our far right class warrior..... :lol:

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4202
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby bovlomov » 15 Jun 2017, 2:37pm

pete75 wrote:
blackbike wrote:This disaster has parallels with the care home system in the UK where councils distance themselves from their responsibilities in order to save money while still finding enough cash for nice terms and conditions for their middle class staff at head office.


More politics of envy from our far right class warrior..... :lol:


He's onto something though. There's a large grey area between the public and private sectors, in which charities and not-for-profit firms operate.

Here's what the Spectator said (in 2015) about Housing Associations.
They are what Tony Blair christened his ‘Third Way’ between capitalism and socialism, in the hope they would combine the best elements of both. Instead, they combine some of the worst: public sector lethargy and private sector greed.


Are kctmo staff overpaid?

thirdcrank
Posts: 30833
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Jun 2017, 2:53pm

From the limited experience of one case - my late mother's housing association flat - they combine all the bureaucratic side of municipal provision, but without the oversight of elected council members: functionaries refer to "your scheme" but only in the sense that residents are responsible, but the HA retains control. (I could give examples to support what I'm saying but they are trivial in the context of this thread.)

User avatar
Paulatic
Posts: 5723
Joined: 2 Feb 2014, 1:03pm
Location: 24 Hours from Lands End

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby Paulatic » 15 Jun 2017, 3:23pm

al_yrpal wrote:Apparently the mods to the building met building regs. Fire officers would have been involved too and would hçave to approve the design and materials. If a novel cladding method was used it surely should have been fire tested, that's the way engineers normally do things? I cannot believe that it was only the cladding. If internal fire doors were closed as they should been the blaze would have been confined. Were fire doors propped open? There have been many fires in tower blocks they are usually confined. Did people flee leaving front doors open allowing the fire to spread into their flat? The central area was like a chimney any heat would have caused a massive updraft? How can a fire in the cladding penetrate into internal spaces? Apparently residents concerns were ignored! Lots of questions, no answers at the moment...

Al


It's the building regs which are outdated
It's the building regs which aren't policed except by self certification. PPI wall collapse in Scottish school a perfect example.
Even as far back as 1998 I had to self certify I'd used a flash point proof product on my walls of the house I built. I had done as I was going to live there. The product wasn't cheap and I've no idea how anyone would know if I'd used a cheaper version.
The cladding has been tested in real life experiences in Melbourne Australia 2014 and Irvine Scotland 1999. Yet still they keep o using it. Why?
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

https://stcleve.wordpress.com/category/lejog/
E2E info

pete75
Posts: 13696
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby pete75 » 15 Jun 2017, 3:37pm

bovlomov wrote:
pete75 wrote:
blackbike wrote:This disaster has parallels with the care home system in the UK where councils distance themselves from their responsibilities in order to save money while still finding enough cash for nice terms and conditions for their middle class staff at head office.


More politics of envy from our far right class warrior..... :lol:


He's onto something though. There's a large grey area between the public and private sectors, in which charities and not-for-profit firms operate.

Here's what the Spectator said (in 2015) about Housing Associations.
They are what Tony Blair christened his ‘Third Way’ between capitalism and socialism, in the hope they would combine the best elements of both. Instead, they combine some of the worst: public sector lethargy and private sector greed.


Are kctmo staff overpaid?


The Spectator though - makes the Daily Mail look liberal, sensible and tolerant. Wasn't one of their writers complaining that not enough cyclists are being killed?

AlaninWales
Posts: 1609
Joined: 26 Oct 2012, 1:47pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby AlaninWales » 15 Jun 2017, 3:40pm

al_yrpal wrote:Apparently the mods to the building met building regs. Fire officers would have been involved too and would have to approve the design and materials. If a novel cladding method was used it surely should have been fire tested, that's the way engineers normally do things? I cannot believe that it was only the cladding. If internal fire doors were closed as they should been the blaze would have been confined. Were fire doors propped open? There have been many fires in tower blocks they are usually confined. Did people flee leaving front doors open allowing the fire to spread into their flat? The central area was like a chimney any heat would have caused a massive updraft? How can a fire in the cladding penetrate into internal spaces? Apparently residents concerns were ignored! Lots of questions, no answers at the moment...

Al

OH For Furies' Sake!!!!
Either you are choosing to be ignorant or you missed this: http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/fire-risks-from-external-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/

The Building Regs say that flammable cladding can be used. They advise that it isn't used on buildings above 20m height. This is not a requirement and the contractors confirm that all Building Regs requirements were met (and withdrew their confirmation that all fire regulatory requirements were met, which may say something to your question about fire doors).

I refer you back to my previous post which I reproduce here in full

AlaninWales wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/disaster-waiting-to-happen-fire-expert-slams-uk-tower-blocks
Fire safety in UK buildings is governed by part B of the Building Regulations, a document that has not been subject to an in-depth review since 2006 (by contrast, other parts are reviewed every two years). A 2015 survey by the Fire Sector Federation, a forum for fire and rescue organisations, found that 92% of its members believed the regulations were “long overdue an overhaul”, claiming that they do not reflect today’s design and construction methods and that research underpinning the guidance is out of date. The coroner in the Lakanal House case also called for a review of part B, as the evidence pointed to a risk of further deaths in the future unless changes were made, with about 4,000 tower blocks in the UK remaining subject to outdated regulations.
Which would suggest that the 2009 summary I linked to is still the latest regulations (flammable cladding is allowed) and advice (it's really a good idea if cladding is not flammable). This appears confirmed by
“The issue is that, under building regulations, only the surface of the cladding has to be fire-proofed to class 0, which is about surface spread,” says Tarling. “The stuff behind it doesn’t, and it’s this which has burned.”

and
Dr Jim Glocking, technical director of the Fire Protection Association (FPA), thinks our standards need a fundamental overhaul. He says he has been campaigning for years to see fire safety standards improved, to no avail.

“We have been very concerned about the introduction of highly combustible products into buildings,” he says. “They are often being introduced on the back of the sustainability agenda, but it’s sometimes being done recklessly without due consideration to the consequences. It’s not uncommon for buildings to have blocks of polystyrene up to 30cm deep on the outside, which is an extraordinary quantity of combustible material to be sticking on to a building. There are often ventilation voids between the rainscreen cladding and the insulation to prevent damp, but this also increases the spread of flames.”

He says UK fire regulations are unique in focusing on simply evacuating people before the building falls down, but not on properly tackling the ingress of fire from outside. “Our regulations are generally very good at keeping people safe,” he says, “but they work on a presumption that fires start inside buildings and that the method for protecting people is to ensure that it stays in the room of origin, doesn’t get to any neighbouring rooms, and certainly doesn’t get to any floors above. But they do not cater for fires ingressing into the building from outside or spreading to the external cladding, which appears to be what happened at Grenfell Tower.”

“We really are forgetting the lessons of the past,” he adds. “I think the inexcusable element here is that with cladding or insulation there are choices. There will be a perfectly good non-combustible choice that can be made, but somebody is not making those calls. It’s a tragedy that long-awaited changes to regulations usually only happen after significant loss of life.”

Sorry about the long quote, but it seems pertinent.


Cladding is only required to have surface (limited - read the link, it's all there) resistance to fire.

Why are you trying to blame "people fleeing" for the clear evidence still available on the BBC that the fire spread uncontrollably up the OUTSIDE of the block? How would shutting fire doors prevent that do you think?

AlaninWales
Posts: 1609
Joined: 26 Oct 2012, 1:47pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby AlaninWales » 15 Jun 2017, 3:44pm

And as for:
al_yrpal wrote: If a novel cladding method was used it surely should have been fire tested, that's the way engineers normally do things? I cannot believe that it was only the cladding.

One would indeed hope that this engineering method of improvement would be used to specify new Building Regs, particularly when a previous disaster (Lakanal, 2009) which resulted in fewer deaths saw a report which recommended precisely that. Unfortunately the responsible Government Department (the head of which has now been made a senior advisor to one T May) sat on this report for the past three years and took no action. :twisted:

francovendee
Posts: 1689
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby francovendee » 15 Jun 2017, 3:53pm

reohn2 wrote:I suppose the problems as with most things where profit overrides everything else is concerned,is "standards"
In the fifth or sixth richest country in the world the UK cannot /will not ensure decent standards of living for all it's citizens as this tragic incident so graphically illustrates but it's just one of many.
As an aside though relative, last night's local TV news ran an article on police numbers.The chief constable of GM police stated categorically that due to a cut of 25% in funding,his workforce had been reduced from 8000 officers to 6000,he could no longer police the GM area effectively and all his officer were restricted to anti terrorist and serious crime duties.

IMHO there is failure of the state to carry out it's duty to the citizens,and though a complex issue it's mainly to do with inefficiency lack enforcement or lack of laws brought about by the state's citizens not paying enough to maintain those laws and politicians at local and national level shirking their duties to the citizens who employ them,because multinational companies dictate the terms by which they operate,that may not be how it appears on paper but it is how it operates.
And so I find myself for once agreeing with Blackbike,no one will ultimately be brought to book I fear and for politicians and business people after a hoohah and a bit of finger pointing it'll be business as usual.
Does anyone remember the Chilcote report :?

Teresa May has called for a full inquiry.
OH goodie, that's all sorted then!!! :roll:

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 9044
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby al_yrpal » 15 Jun 2017, 4:44pm

Why are you trying to blame "people fleeing"

I am not trying to blame anyone unlike a lot of people with very obvious political motives here. I worked for a long time in a tower block and constantly saw people propping open doors on hot days to get some ventilation. If someone was fleeing from a flat would they close the fireproof front door when leaving, I think not? Open doors turn a tall structure into a powerful chimney. At some points you could see the fire behind intact closed windows, why was that? I think the enquiry will answer the question of what happened. We have to wait on the answers forthcoming. Mercifully other fires in clad tower blocks have been confined to a single property within them like the one in Southampton.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tower Block Disaster

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jun 2017, 4:46pm

francovendee wrote:Teresa May has called for a full inquiry.
OH goodie, that's all sorted then!!! :roll:


Though we know what usually happens after such enquiries,it get's noted and filed and everyone carries on as before :twisted:
Last edited by reohn2 on 15 Jun 2017, 4:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------