Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

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reohn2
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby reohn2 » 1 Jul 2017, 5:16pm

Freddie wrote:It is not about harm to me, but harm to the institution of marriage. Marriage in Britain circa 1958 = Monogamy (no polygamy), man and woman, until death do them part. Marriage in Britain in 2017 = Polygamy, 'open marriages', same sex marriage, not until death do you part, but until you get 'tired' of one another.

Marriage today is a joke, no wonder so few young people bother, but then that is the point. It was never about opening up marriage (and same-sex marriage is but the tip of the iceberg), but destroying it, by making it mean anything, everything (as per reohn2's last post) and therefore nothing.

So do you think 1958 marriages are all monogamous by agreement?

Like I said, if we have 'open marriages', why not marriages between more than 2 people? Why oppose that?

Because it isn't allowed within UK law,and not without reason,one reason could be that a man with four wives and 40 children could be a bigger burden on the state if he were unable to support them.
Also as our marriage laws were originally based on the Christian church teaching ,though recently ammended to include homosexual marriage to give homosexual partners the same rights as heterosexual partners which is fair IMO.
I think society is becoming more liberal with regard to sexuality and marriage,you may not agree with that and that's your prerogative but as I posted before you can't judge everyone by your own standards,marriage isn't a set of the same laws for everyone
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reohn2
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby reohn2 » 1 Jul 2017, 5:21pm

pwa wrote:Marriage has traditionally been a union of two people of the opposite sex. These days the great majority of us recognise that two people of the same sex can love each other and wish to commit themselves to each other in the same way. It does not matter that you and I do not want a same sex marriage. All that matters is that they want it, and it costs us nothing to allow them to have it. The essential thing about marriage is that it is a commitment, a contract between two people who wish to publicly unite. There is no reason to deny same sex couples the institution of marriage.

Agreed and nor is there any reason for homosexual or heterosexual couples to conduct themselves within that marriage to Freddie's standard,providing both partners agree to it.
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661-Pete
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby 661-Pete » 1 Jul 2017, 5:25pm

brynpoeth wrote:But there were plenty of other gr8 composers from Germany, Telemann is being celebrated now, Bach, Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy, Schumann, Schubert, Brahms
Schubert was actually Austrian - but no matter! :)
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

reohn2
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby reohn2 » 1 Jul 2017, 5:25pm

Thinks...... .....marriage police anyone?
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reohn2
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby reohn2 » 1 Jul 2017, 5:28pm

Anyway in an effort to keep everyone happy,how many stages will John Degenkolb win in the T de F :)
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pete75
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby pete75 » 1 Jul 2017, 5:31pm

reohn2 wrote:Thinks...... .....marriage police anyone?


A bit like the Bottom Inspectors in Viz comic perhaps?


http://viz.co.uk/prohibition-act-outlaw ... -ointment/

pete75
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby pete75 » 1 Jul 2017, 5:38pm

reohn2 wrote:Anyway in an effort to keep everyone happy,how many stages will John Degenkolb win in the T de F :)


Never mind the Tour it's the Giro that's really tempts the married man. :wink:


brynpoeth
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby brynpoeth » 1 Jul 2017, 5:52pm

pete75 wrote:
Freddie wrote:It is not about harm to me, but harm to the institution of marriage. Marriage in Britain circa 1958 = Monogamy (no polygamy), man and woman, until death do them part. Marriage in Britain in 2017 = Polygamy, 'open marriages', same sex marriage, not until death do you part, but until you get 'tired' of one another.

Marriage today is a joke, no wonder so few young people bother, but then that is the point. It was never about opening up marriage (and same-sex marriage is but the tip of the iceberg), but destroying it, by making it mean anything, everything (as per reohn2's last post) and therefore nothing.

Like I said, if we have 'open marriages', why not marriages between more than 2 people? Why oppose that?


Bloody hell - things have changed in the last sixty years? Who'd have thought it possible...... :roll:

Go back to 1958 and doubtless you'd be complaining about all the social change since 1899.


And in the next sixty years?

BTW, cycling in Germany is great too, along the Elbe or the Oder one may ride for hours atop the dykes and hardly see a soul, it is *betoerend* (hypnotising, mesmerising)
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brynpoeth
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby brynpoeth » 1 Jul 2017, 6:12pm

Cymru am byth! Geraint Thomas has taken the jersey, le tricot jaune!

In his first tour ten years ago he was second to last, +1!

...

Historically polygamy was the norm in many societies, for example when many men were lost in wars, maybe even when many were lost while hunting dinosaurs, sorry mammoths

We are very lucky to live in the 21 century I think

Who will win the Tour? Will Macron be at the finish?
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Freddie
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby Freddie » 1 Jul 2017, 6:19pm

pete75 wrote:Bloody hell - things have changed in the last sixty years? Who'd have thought it possible...... :roll:

Go back to 1958 and doubtless you'd be complaining about all the social change since 1899.
Probably, but change and progress aren't necessarily synonomous.
reohn2 wrote:So do you think 1958 marriages are all monogamous by agreement?
That was the idea of marriage vows.
reohn2 wrote:Because it isn't allowed within UK law,and not without reason,one reason could be that a man with four wives and 40 children could be a bigger burden on the state if he were unable to support them.
but it does occur, Muslims in the UK engage in polygamous marriages and the state turns a blind eye. If they can, why shouldn't anyone else; it's hardly equal is it.

Do you think the state you require Muslims to marry monogamously or should they extend polygamy to everyone?
reohn2 wrote:Also as our marriage laws were originally based on the Christian church teaching ,though recently ammended to include homosexual marriage to give homosexual partners the same rights as heterosexual partners which is fair IMO.
Indeed, so why would homosexuals want to get married then, if our marriage laws are based on Christian teaching and few are practising Christians. Surely the civil partnership would better suit their beliefs in most cases.
reohn2 wrote:I think society is becoming more liberal with regard to sexuality and marriage,you may not agree with that and that's your prerogative but as I posted before you can't judge everyone by your own standards,marriage isn't a set of the same laws for everyone
What is wrong with civil partnerships? I thought you would be in favour, as you seem less than impressed with many other religous traditions; what is different about marriage?
reohn2 wrote:Agreed and nor is there any reason for homosexual or heterosexual couples to conduct themselves within that marriage to Freddie's standard,providing both partners agree to it.
I'm not sure if you do agree with pwa. He seems to be suggesting that marriage is a commitment between two people (to what, pwa, a commitment to what?). Perhaps he means that it is a commitment to monogamy. If it is then that precludes 'open marriages'.
brynpoeth wrote:And in the next sixty years?
There will be no such practise amongst Christians, other groups will retain it. Maybe there will be not much left of Christianity in the British Isles; mission complete?

pwa
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby pwa » 1 Jul 2017, 6:34pm

What marriage means has already changed. It used to be marriage in the sight of God. We have already changed that to allow for secular marriage. This is not an unchanging institution.

Frankly, whilst it doesn't appeal to me, if other people want an "open marriage" that is their business. If that is what they understand as their contract, fine. I'm not sure how that works, but why should it bother me?

I know gay couples who live in monogamous relationships that have stood the test of time and seem to me like married couples, and if they think formal marriage is what they want I think they should have it. The fact that it does not fit somebody else's idea of marriage is irrelevant.

Freddie
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby Freddie » 1 Jul 2017, 6:48pm

If you don't think it should be explicitly defined as being monogamous, you might as well say it should not exist, that being the end result in (previously) Christian countries anyway, where marriage has been understood to be monogamous for many centuries. What is the point of marriage to somebody who thinks it should be open? If people cannot commit to monogamy then they should not marry in first place, as opposed to trying to bend marriage to their own ends.

brynpoeth
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby brynpoeth » 1 Jul 2017, 6:59pm

Another reason to love Germany - tolerance for diversity

In summer many towns have a gay pride week with films, events and a parade

*I love being on duty for Christopher Street Day, there is never any trouble and the passers-by wave and shout in encouragement* said a police officer
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pwa
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby pwa » 1 Jul 2017, 7:08pm

Freddie wrote:If you don't think it should be explicitly defined as being monogamous, you might as well say it should not exist, that being the end result in (previously) Christian countries anyway, where marriage has been understood to be monogamous for many centuries. What is the point of marriage to somebody who thinks it should be open? If people cannot commit to monogamy then they should not marry in first place, as opposed to trying to bend marriage to their own ends.


But there you go, telling other people how they should live. I know what my marriage means to me. If marriage means something a bit different to somebody else I don't care. I imagine most people who marry, whether gay or straight, do so with the intention of being monogamous. If some don't, so what? We can still be "faithful" with our own partners. My wife and I were together for about six years before we married. We had already made our commitment to each other and the marriage was just formalising what already existed. That is what matters. The commitment to each other. Gays can embark on that kind of relationship too. By allowing them to formally marry we are accepting them as valid human beings who have a right to forge their relationships in a way they can feel comfortable with.

pete75
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Re: Auferstanden aus Ruinen - we love Germany!

Postby pete75 » 1 Jul 2017, 8:50pm

Freddie wrote:
pete75 wrote:Bloody hell - things have changed in the last sixty years? Who'd have thought it possible...... :roll:

Go back to 1958 and doubtless you'd be complaining about all the social change since 1899.
Probably, but change and progress aren't necessarily synonomous.

True but the increase in social freedom, tolerance and the reduction in prejudice over the past 60 years definitely is progress.