Do You think we should leave the EU?

[blackbike]

I've noticed that the more difficult and bitter a dispute, a disagreement or difference of opinion becomes the less the likelihood of reconciliation and of the parties involved agreeing not to disagree and to go back to how things were.

Brexit is going just fine.

[blackbike]

I think we should leave the EU now.

I don't see the point in negotiating with a fiercely protectionist bloc which is motivated by self interest and a desire to continue to have access to our money.

Some people are not worth talking to and it is better to walk away from them and let them do as they like.

[hjd10]

"Ever Closer Union" is the issue, and people like me have had enough of it.

Are you saying that you don't want more harmony among the peoples of Europe, or are you misinterpreting the expression as some sort of political union aim like C Cameron did for his own short-sighted selfish ends? https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining- ... ser-union/

We didn't join the Schengen Area, and we didn't join the Euro, so we've been half-hearted EU members all this time anyway.

Schengen... we probably should have joined. The Euro isn't really needed for whole-heartedness as Denmark and Sweden didn't join it either and I doubt anyone much sees them as half-hearted EU members.

The ever closer union is more control by people who are currently out of touch, that is why I voted out.

[PDQ Mobile]

The ever closer union is more control by people who are currently out of touch, that is why I voted out.

I am always curious about these kind of statements.
Could you be more specific?

In what way do you feel the EU is more "out of touch" than our own UK Govt?

And in what way do they have more control?

Control being of course to some extent the function of any govt organization.

Do you see any positives?

My own view, in case there was any doubt remaining (no pun intended!), is that Brussels has passed legislation which has on the whole benefitted the diverse peoples of Europe.
It's not an easy remit and not without some issues but nothing that couldn't be eventually resolved by genial grown up discussion and debate.
Sadly lacking on the UK side at the moment.

[mjr]

"Ever Closer Union" is the issue, and people like me have had enough of it.

Are you saying that you don't want more harmony among the peoples of Europe, or are you misinterpreting the expression as some sort of political union aim like C Cameron did for his own short-sighted selfish ends? https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining- ... ser-union/

The ever closer union is more control by people who are currently out of touch, that is why I voted out.

Please read the fact-checking link - that phrase ain't about control, except in the minds of Cameron and his cronies.

[pwa]

The ever closer union is more control by people who are currently out of touch, that is why I voted out.

I am always curious about these kind of statements.
Could you be more specific?

In what way do you feel the EU is more "out of touch" than our own UK Govt?

And in what way do they have more control?

Control being of course to some extent the function of any govt organization.

Do you see any positives?

My own view, in case there was any doubt remaining (no pun intended!), is that Brussels has passed legislation which has on the whole benefitted the diverse peoples of Europe.
It's not an easy remit and not without some issues but nothing that couldn't be eventually resolved by genial grown up discussion and debate.
Sadly lacking on the UK side at the moment.

I do wonder if wanting to stay in the EU is like trying to get the genie back in the bottle. Even if we took another vote tomorrow and a majority voted to stay in, things would never return to those days when staying in seemed inevitable. We would always be on the edge of leaving, reliant on swings in public mood.

[PDQ Mobile]

I do wonder if wanting to stay in the EU is like trying to get the genie back in the bottle. Even if we took another vote tomorrow and a majority voted to stay in, things would never return to those days when staying in seemed inevitable. We would always be on the edge of leaving, reliant on swings in public mood.

It's a point of view.
We shall see I guess.
Never is a long time, as they say.

Swings in public mood are curious phenomena.
The will of the people and all that!

I am always interested in the causes of "swings in public mood".
Come to think of it, what is the "public mood" as an entity?

[mjr]

I do wonder if wanting to stay in the EU is like trying to get the genie back in the bottle. Even if we took another vote tomorrow and a majority voted to stay in, things would never return to those days when staying in seemed inevitable. We would always be on the edge of leaving, reliant on swings in public mood.

What, you mean like after voting to stay in the previous time, things never returned to being on the edge of leaving? These things are always reliant on swings in public mood

It'll be interesting if the mood swings back towards fair play, cooperation and solidarity despite the peer, the pornographer and the economic migrants owning most of the major papers continuing to push Brexit - surely one Europhile editor at the fourth-largest newspaper isn't enough to outdo the combined influence of the owners of the first, second, third, seventh, eighth and ninth? If he does, it must mean the Brexit argument is very weak indeed.

[pwa]

I do wonder if wanting to stay in the EU is like trying to get the genie back in the bottle. Even if we took another vote tomorrow and a majority voted to stay in, things would never return to those days when staying in seemed inevitable. We would always be on the edge of leaving, reliant on swings in public mood.

What, you mean like after voting to stay in the previous time, things never returned to being on the edge of leaving? These things are always reliant on swings in public mood

It'll be interesting if the mood swings back towards fair play, cooperation and solidarity despite the peer, the pornographer and the economic migrants owning most of the major papers continuing to push Brexit - surely one Europhile editor at the fourth-largest newspaper isn't enough to outdo the combined influence of the owners of the first, second, third, seventh, eighth and ninth? If he does, it must mean the Brexit argument is very weak indeed.

What I'm saying is that I cannot see the UK returning to the situation we had for decades where leaving the EU was unthinkable to the great majority. I believe that consensus is well and truly broken. Although I do want to leave the EU I do also regret the split in our nation that this issue causes. But I don't see a way out of that.

[PDQ Mobile]

But I don't see a way out of that.

No pun intended?!

I regret the split in our nation too. FWIW

[mercalia]

I hope we dont leave as the size of the leave group echoed in other EU countries will speed up reform and put a stop to the grand plan of the unification of Europe as a new Holy Roman Empire led by Germany and France?

[Tangled Metal]

Yes I can see that view but look at what the mood music from rEU leaders. Macron, elected in with a powerful French mandate, has always been into closer unification of EU countries. He's said as much before and after his presidential and parliamentary victories.

Others too I reckon. Merkel is a political oddity IMHO. She's as unique in politics as Thatcher I reckon. A complete pragmatist with her own way of operating. She was in chancellor Kohls' administration and effectively did him in. She's got a ruthless side I reckon as befits the best or at least greatest of the political class. However to get get support you have to have a good argument. If it works for her Germany you'll.get her support.

Right now the break up of the EU project is not in her interests. So her.practical side kicks in which I reckon with a good argument for closer unification she'll go for it. Especially if it scuppers the leave side across Europe. I personally don't think leave groups will ever truly threaten rEU. It means closer ties across rEU. She can't afford break up of EU.


BTW the European project was originally, to Germans, a part of their rehabilitation after the wwii according to some political analysts. It's so closely tied in with their political views that they'll defend the EU even at German expense. They'll save the EU despite the damage it could do to their economy and national interest. EU project is.more important than German jobs!

No I reckon Brexit will strengthen the EU in a way nothing else would. In the medium to long term. In the short term it could look weakened but events look differently when they're history.

[pwa]

Yes I can see that view but look at what the mood music from rEU leaders. Macron, elected in with a powerful French mandate, has always been into closer unification of EU countries. He's said as much before and after his presidential and parliamentary victories.

Others too I reckon. Merkel is a political oddity IMHO. She's as unique in politics as Thatcher I reckon. A complete pragmatist with her own way of operating. She was in chancellor Kohls' administration and effectively did him in. She's got a ruthless side I reckon as befits the best or at least greatest of the political class. However to get get support you have to have a good argument. If it works for her Germany you'll.get her support.

Right now the break up of the EU project is not in her interests. So her.practical side kicks in which I reckon with a good argument for closer unification she'll go for it. Especially if it scuppers the leave side across Europe. I personally don't think leave groups will ever truly threaten rEU. It means closer ties across rEU. She can't afford break up of EU.


BTW the European project was originally, to Germans, a part of their rehabilitation after the wwii according to some political analysts. It's so closely tied in with their political views that they'll defend the EU even at German expense. They'll save the EU despite the damage it could do to their economy and national interest. EU project is.more important than German jobs!

No I reckon Brexit will strengthen the EU in a way nothing else would. In the medium to long term. In the short term it could look weakened but events look differently when they're history.

I know we took different sides on the Brexit question, but I do think the UK has long been uncomfortable in the EU and our leaving will make the EU more at ease.

[bovlomov]

... I do think the UK has long been uncomfortable in the EU and our leaving will make the EU more at ease.

There have been good reasons to be uncomfortable with aspects of the EU, but those rarely made the newspapers. The UK's discomfort, instead, is mainly based on lies and misunderstandings, of the type that Boris (the 'journalist') was paid to generate.

The EU may turn out to be stronger. My worry has been, that 1) - to over-simplify - the UK's common law history provided a bit of ballast against the Napoleonic forces, which might then run out of control, and 2) the sight of the reputedly sober UK losing its mind would embolden the wilder elements within the EU. For 2) the opposite has happened; the people of the EU seem to view us as a cautionary tale. We don't know about 1).

[Tangled Metal]

Whatever, it's a mess and we'll never know how much and what blame to put on which.people. It might work well in the future but right now it's a mess. Justified mess or unjustified is personal politics/beliefs.

Personally I hope the EU prosper and do very well without us. I suspect it could strengthen the hand of the federalist Europeans. It would be very interesting to see a few very big nations. USA, China, India, Russia, Brazil and EU.

What would a United Europe call itself if it became one nation like the USA? USE doesn't work, Europe includes more than rEU nations and I can't see Eurasia working. Interesting digression?