Acid Attacks - what do we do?

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Ben@Forest
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby Ben@Forest » 17 Jul 2017, 3:37pm

Is this a crime that is likely to become more prevalent as the ethnic or foreign born mix gets greater in the UK? Stories about women especially being the victims of acid attacks in the Indian sub-continent have been around for years and about a decade ago I remember reading an article about crime in Jamaica, which stated that acid attacks were common because it was cheaper and easier to get acid than another form of weapon. I don't know about the background of those who carried out this recent attack though.

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mjr
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2017, 5:03pm

Ben@Forest wrote:Is this a crime that is likely to become more prevalent as the ethnic or foreign born mix gets greater in the UK?

No. We have a long and not-so-proud history of attacks with acid in the UK too (vitriol is the old common name for sulphuric acid), as pete75 mentioned earlier. Did the UK and France export the practice to the rest of the world, even?
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ChrisOntLancs
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby ChrisOntLancs » 17 Jul 2017, 5:04pm

started as an honor thing, in fact i believe in most countries it is. here it's a legal thing, it's not regarded as a weapon (like knives), the charge isn't as bad as stabbing (i.e attempted murder) and it's very easy to get away with it as until very recently the thousands of cases reported to the police didn't get as much coverage as the honor attacks that gave everybody the idea.

the guy who attacked those cousins was walking around for weeks before he handed himself in, and he had tattoos on his face.

here it's gangs, hate crimes, robberies, mindless violence and many other reasons. it's that old saying "if they had a brain they'd be dangerous"... and here we are.

somebody may have already said this, i dunno, i got fed up of reading "it's them mooslims". to be fair though on this forum they are better at spelling. i'm pretty sure there's a "u" somewhere in honor, but i have an american spell checker. see, i really am no better.

we could just say it's a cultural thing and forget about it, but how long before one of us gets a shot of it while we're waiting at the lights?

pete75
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby pete75 » 17 Jul 2017, 7:38pm

mjr wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:Is this a crime that is likely to become more prevalent as the ethnic or foreign born mix gets greater in the UK?

No. We have a long and not-so-proud history of attacks with acid in the UK too (vitriol is the old common name for sulphuric acid), as pete75 mentioned earlier. Did the UK and France export the practice to the rest of the world, even?


Given the process which led to large scale and economical production of sulphuric acid or oil of vitriol was invented here then probably yes.

Psamathe
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby Psamathe » 17 Jul 2017, 9:33pm

mjr wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Somebody on TV was saying how the weapon has always been there but use has increased partially through excessive stop & search. They were saying that somebody stopped & searched will be caught if they are carrying a knife (something most police officers can recognise); but a bottle of clear liquid and the police don't have the means to accurately test for stop & search (and is carrying it even an offence?). I've no idea if this is a valid aspect, just repeating what this person said in a TV interview.

Please don't repeat the thoughts of morons unless you believe them.

Police could easily carry test kit if they suspect it's a problem in some area. Litmus paper is something like 3p a strip retail in small quantities (so the police can probably get it cheaper), or reusable pH testers are available in pretty much every garden centre (for testing soil pH) or car spares shop (for testing various car liquids, including coolant IIRC). It would be a heck of a lot smaller than the drug test kits.

I suspect carrying acid with intent is an offence. Loads of stuff can be carried legitimately, but if the police can justify why they think you're up to no good with it, they detain you - taking bolt croppers to a cycle park, for example.

My interpretation was not so much that it was not possible were police given the gear/training, just that police had not been given the gear/capability so could not easily establish what a liquid was in the context of stop & search.

I don't regard it as a matter of my believing them or not. What they said made sense (given that Police don't carry litmus paper of pH testers routinely as far as I'm aware) but I don't see it a question of belief. A possibility but I don't know enough to assess the truth or not.

Ian

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mjr
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2017, 9:58pm

Psamathe wrote:[My interpretation was not so much that it was not possible were police given the gear/training, just that police had not been given the gear/capability so could not easily establish what a liquid was in the context of stop & search.

I don't regard it as a matter of my believing them or not. What they said made sense (given that Police don't carry litmus paper of pH testers routinely as far as I'm aware) but I don't see it a question of belief. A possibility but I don't know enough to assess the truth or not.

I don't know what the Police carry routinely - or even exceptionally. I hope if they suspect acid attacks, then someone in the police has the capability to pop out and buy some litmus paper.

There's also the small matter of liquid explosives. Surely police can test some liquids sometimes. Acid's a pretty obvious one.
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Psamathe
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby Psamathe » 17 Jul 2017, 10:45pm

mjr wrote:
Psamathe wrote:[My interpretation was not so much that it was not possible were police given the gear/training, just that police had not been given the gear/capability so could not easily establish what a liquid was in the context of stop & search.

I don't regard it as a matter of my believing them or not. What they said made sense (given that Police don't carry litmus paper of pH testers routinely as far as I'm aware) but I don't see it a question of belief. A possibility but I don't know enough to assess the truth or not.

I don't know what the Police carry routinely - or even exceptionally. I hope if they suspect acid attacks, then someone in the police has the capability to pop out and buy some litmus paper.

There's also the small matter of liquid explosives. Surely police can test some liquids sometimes. Acid's a pretty obvious one.

The person was talking about Stop & Search situations, not the Police in a wider context. Individual was talking about why "acid attacks" had increasednot what the Police might now do to address that.

I wonder if it is just a matter of popping out and buying some litmus paper. H&S might require e.g. rubber gloves when handling an unknown liquid that might be e.g. strong acid, might need to have considerations of disposal of the litmus paper, maybe officers getting some training in handling unknown potentially dangerous liquids, etc.

Ian

Ruadh495
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby Ruadh495 » 19 Jul 2017, 5:01pm

Even highly dilute acids (white vinegar?) will be at the end of the scale for indicator papers, concentrated acids are right off it. I suppose if it dissolves the indicator paper that suggests it might be a bit nasty.

Litmus paper BTW can only tell you that a substance is acidic, so common soft drinks, vinegar etc would register just as much as drain cleaner (Ok, some common soft drinks are drain cleaner...)

tatanab
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby tatanab » 19 Jul 2017, 5:19pm

Ruadh495 wrote:Litmus paper BTW can only tell you that a substance is acidic, so common soft drinks, vinegar etc would register just as much as drain cleaner (Ok, some common soft drinks are drain cleaner...)
Litmus indicates acid or alkali. Remember your school chemistry lesson ditty? Red to blue, alkalu. Blue to red, asaid. Drain cleaner is just as likely to be alkaline (sodium hydroxide) as acid (sulphuric).

Or has litmus paper changed since I last used it in 1969? Quite possible.

Psamathe
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby Psamathe » 19 Jul 2017, 10:30pm

Nasty "spin-off" crime - really makes you wonder about this country (or maybe humanity)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/muslim-women-water-attack-racist-assault-southampton-mosque-acid-attacks-bashir-ahmed-masjid-a7848261.html wrote:Water thrown at terrified Muslim women in 'fake acid attack hate crime' outside Southampton mosque


Ian

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ChrisOntLancs
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby ChrisOntLancs » 19 Jul 2017, 10:38pm

Psamathe wrote:Nasty "spin-off" crime - really makes you wonder about this country (or maybe humanity)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/muslim-women-water-attack-racist-assault-southampton-mosque-acid-attacks-bashir-ahmed-masjid-a7848261.html wrote:Water thrown at terrified Muslim women in 'fake acid attack hate crime' outside Southampton mosque


Ian


i saw that, and i'm not sure how i feel about it yet (glad i have that luxury though). so we ban water (obviously not, just hate crimes, and deal with the fear of acid attacks, probably by making an effort to stop them). i've got a rough idea - it's bad.

as if they were a fair cross section of society, i was reading the tweets in response to the indy's coverage and the overall tone was "well, it's just water, you can't send somebody to prison just for throwing water". well... what about if you threatened a bank worker with a replica gun, or sold a kilo of washing detergent to a known drug dealer?

even for people who worry that the punishment will be too harsh, there's this ability to dismiss this stuff that's really scary to me.

blackbike
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby blackbike » 19 Jul 2017, 10:42pm

Not a single UK prosecution for FGM yet.

I get the feeling that acid attacks are in the same sort of territory and unlikely to be taken as seriously as they should be.

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meic
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby meic » 19 Jul 2017, 10:50pm

Or has litmus paper changed since I last used it in 1969? Quite possible.


More likely you have forgotten, with it being almost fifty years ago, that the litmus only told you its pH value, in order to find concentration you had to move on to the titration.
Yma o Hyd

pete75
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby pete75 » 20 Jul 2017, 1:25am

ChrisOntLancs wrote:i saw that, and i'm not sure how i feel about it yet (glad i have that luxury though). so we ban water


The way politicians and the press have knee jerk reactions just imagine - a spate of deliberate drownings and that's just what some would propose. :wink:

Freddie
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Re: Acid Attacks - what do we do?

Postby Freddie » 20 Jul 2017, 11:43am

Psamathe wrote:Nasty "spin-off" crime - really makes you wonder about this country (or maybe humanity)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 48261.html wrote:
Water thrown at terrified Muslim women in 'fake acid attack hate crime' outside Southampton mosque
Ian
Isn't there rather a lot of presumption in that article (and the way the police are dealing with it). They presume it was racially motivated and it was an emulation of an acid attack; why couldn't it just be some idiots on a hot day with a bottle of water + two bystanders in the wrong place, at the right time. Surely other people have been showered with water from a moving car before. I'm pretty sure I've read threads on this forum where people say as much has happened to them whilst cycling in the summer.

What is the likelihood of the police paying such an incident any mind if the victims had been non-Muslims, would they have taken it seriously? My feeling is they would say there is nothing they can do and that it is a minor incident not worthy of pursuing. Would the media have run a story about it, I think not. The way police and the media deal with the same issue experienced by different people is all a bit Animal Farm (all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.).

Certainly everyone posting here has been put in far more danger by close passes than these women were by having water thrown on them.

It is unpleasant what happened to these women, but one can't help feel rather more attention is given to it and conclusions jumped to, because the victims were Muslim. Perhaps the best way to be protected as a cyclist is to wear some traditional Muslim dress. The danger is hardly likely to increase by much (cycling in the UK being dangerous enough as is), but then at least as a 'more equal' minority group, the police will be more motivated to find any perpetrator of close passes or road rage against you, rather than being completely disinterested when your safety is jeopardised. Violence and aggression committed against you seemingly because of your race or religion being more serious than the same violence committed for other reasons, like being a cyclist, even if the outcome of such violence and aggression remains the same.

Someone enterprising young soul at university should conduct a study into 'cycling whilst overtly Muslim'. Two birds can be killed with one stone; we can see if overt Muslims are more likely to be victims of close passes and aggression as compared to those in non-Muslim dress, and we can also gauge whether there is any increase in response or seriousness with which incidents are taken when reported to the police. Such a study would be a good way to suggest changes that make society more equal, both for cyclists and Muslims.

Win, win, as far as I can see.