Morality, society and thinking about others.

[Vorpal]

A screaming child is not necessarily a sign of parental lack of control. Yes, there are some parents who spoil their children, bring them up to be obnoxious brats, etc.

Other people don't know the story behind the child that has a tantrum in the supermarket. They don't know if they are autistic or spoiled, or just tired. They don't know what struggles the parent has had just to be able to go shopping; if they are a single parent, also caring for an elderly parent, have a spouse who travels for work, or if they take their kids because they work full time and don't want to spend the evening without them.

Having lived in Norway for a few years, now, I think the biggest difference between British children, and other European children, is that many British children don't get to go out and play properly. They are supervised and organised. They go to football or something, and have some free time at school, but they don't go exploring, climbing trees, organising their own games of football, etc. that German or Norwegian kids have. They also don't range as far from home independently.

That play time and the exercise the kids get make a big difference in their capability to sit still in a restaurant. That said, most kids find it boring to sit in a restaurant while adults eat. I often let my kids read or play games on an iPad if it's just us. Not if we have guests, or we go out with others.

I try to explain things to my kids. One is a negotiator, and not only wants stuff explained in detail, but will argue points. The other one gets bored with explanantions and just wants to know if he can have his iPad

[old_windbag]

Other people don't know the story behind the child that has a tantrum in the supermarket. They don't know if they are autistic or spoiled, or just tired. They don't know what struggles the parent has had just to be able to go shopping; if they are a single parent, also caring for an elderly parent, have a spouse who travels for work, or if they take their kids because they work full time and don't want to spend the evening without them.

Crikey any other permutations and combinations, I wish you'd give me the chance to learn the violin .

I think "spoiled" is part of bad parenting but Vorpal we live in times where parents are given more, in every form financial and convenience, to assist them than in any time in history...... but it's still a struggle. Surely when you make a decision to bring a human into the world you have sat and thought through all the problems it will bring to your lifestyle and make a rational decision as to yes we do or don't. Added to that the impact on our ever stretched resources/environment which I feel is of the uptmost importance beyond the "selfish" need to continue your genes. We live in times where it is no longer a god given right to have as many kids as you wish but take a considered view and also decide if you actually would make a good parent( thats not aimed a you but in general terms ). As it is although we have improved healthcare, longer lives and contraception, nature rules and the urge to have sex without thought to the outcome still wins the day with many. But in the UK that attitude will get you a council house .

Having lived in Norway for a few years, now, I think the biggest difference between British children, and other European children, is that many British children don't get to go out and play properly. They are supervised and organised. They go to football or something, and have some free time at school, but they don't go exploring, climbing trees, organising their own games of football, etc. that German or Norwegian kids have. They also don't range as far from home independently.

This is a good example of bad parenting is it not. Kids are no different to when I was one, but parents attitude to risk and the media scaremongering about [derogatory word removed]'s has not helped. Also the generation of car loving sedentary parents set the example to their children as most of us do not feel is a great example.

In my youth we were still brought up with "a child should be seen and not heard" etc, also taught good manners, speak when spoken to and so on. Common working class people but with enough about them to bring up respectable adults. It's sad to see the excessively tattooed, muffin topped young mothers of today, swiping their smartphones and with their children from several fathers..... but it mixes up the gene pool I guess.

[Vorpal]

Crikey any other permutations and combinations, I wish you'd give me the chance to learn the violin .

I think "spoiled" is part of bad parenting but Vorpal we live in times where parents are given more, in every form financial and convenience, to assist them than in any time in history...... but it's still a struggle. Surely when you make a decision to bring a human into the world you have sat and thought through all the problems it will bring to your lifestyle and make a rational decision as to yes we do or don't.

Well, I was just thinking that even the best parents & their kids have bad days, and some parents have many more challenges than others. It's easy to victim blame, but a parent or carer who has a kid with special needs shouldn't have to stay home just to avoid someone else witnessing a tantrum or something. Bad parenting? How do you know what is bad parenting and what is a good parent in a bad moment?

--story warning--
The only time I can recall that one of my kids had a meltdown in a supermarket, we had been travelling that day. I think we were meant to be home at 4:00 pm, so I could go shopping and Mr. V could get ready for work (night shift), but between delayed trains and a replacement bus service, and heavy traffic, we got home at 9 or 9.30. Mr. V left for work right away, and I had to deal with a tired, grumpy toddler with no food to speak of in the house. I took her with me to the shop, and opened some rice cakes to keep her quiet while I picked up enough stuff for an evening meal and breakfast, but the person on the tills was rude, and the next customer was shoving the trolley, which scared Mini V (who was still strapped in to it) and she finally had enough and started crying. Someone told me to shut my brat up or words to that effect. The person on the till was trying to get me to move so she could start the next customer's items, the next customer threw his stuff down on top of mine and stomped out (apparently I didn't get out of his way fast enough), and then when the manager came over to see what all the ruckus was about, someone told him that I was trying to pack up stuff I hadn't paid for (what the next customer had thrown down in his huff).

So, while my hungry, tired kid was sitting there crying, they made me unpack my stuff and repack it while they checked what was on the receipt. No one even apologised to me when it tallied correctly. By then of course, there was a long queue, and people were glaring at me, like it was all my fault. All it needed to make it a scene out of a mum's flick was someone hissing at me what a bad parent I was as she slipped past with a neatly groomed, perfectly angelic child.

[thirdcrank]

... Having lived in Norway for a few years, now, I think the biggest difference between British children, and other European children, is that many British children don't get to go out and play properly. They are supervised and organised. They go to football or something, and have some free time at school, but they don't go exploring, climbing trees, organising their own games of football, etc. that German or Norwegian kids have. They also don't range as far from home independently. ... (My emphasis)

Which reminds me, I don't think we've heard from groveller recently. I hope he's OK.

viewtopic.php?p=82489#p82489

[old_windbag]

someone told him that I was trying to pack up stuff I hadn't paid for

My patience would be tested if they said that about me in an acusatory way! It'd be all gun's blazing and the air would be blue with choice language . Sometimes polite has to go out of the window temporarily hehe.

In supermarkets I regularly come across those in the cue behind me who started loading the conveyer even though I still have a half filled trolley to empty, and am in due process of doing so. They'll put the divider down with 1ft of space , I simply stop, turn to look at them in the face and they then move it further along towards them shifting their stuff in the process...... no words spoken. I once had a mother on a bus say "stop doing that darling the man doesn't like it", they were kicking the bus seat but the look I was giving the mother spoke volumes and she got the message quickly.

There are some very impatient people in society and their logic in thinking the queue will move faster by stopping me unloading shopping is rather misplaced. There's definitely rules and ettiquette applying to these situations.

[661-Pete]

When I wrote "there are some individuals I hate" I was putting a twist on magnolia's earlier post - anyway if I do harbour that feeling towards any person, that's a personal matter, not for this forum. End of.

It seems to me, that subsequent posts on this thread testify incontrovertably that most forummers think mercalia was totally out of order in his earlier remarks about children and disabled people in supermarkets - even if they were made in jest. Time for a retraction and apology, I think?

This is not 'hate mail' - just a firm reprimand.

[Paulatic]

Vorpal said,
took her with me to the shop, and opened some rice cakes to keep her quiet while I picked up enough stuff for an evening meal

When did this practise become acceptable and it appears quite the norm for some families.
I Often see this, children and sometimes adults opening packages and eating the contents before reaching the checkout. We wouldn't dream of doing it and our kids would have had to wait until the food was paid for before consuming.

[Psamathe]

Vorpal said,
took her with me to the shop, and opened some rice cakes to keep her quiet while I picked up enough stuff for an evening meal

When did this practise become acceptable and it appears quite the norm for some families.
I Often see this, children and sometimes adults opening packages and eating the contents before reaching the checkout. We wouldn't dream of doing it and our kids would have had to wait until the food was paid for before consuming.

Where I used to live in France it was common practice; not for kids but adults with bread. Most visits to supermarket and you'd see people wandering around eating a baguette; often see them telling the cashier to add a baguette to the bill or a half eaten baguette on the check-out. But then things were a lot more relaxed and "easy-going" (e.g. if a cashier needed to exchange an item a customer had, none of this calling a supervisor over but they'd get-up, leave the till unattended, walk to the shelf, do whatever and return to the till - happened regularly, not a one-off).

Ian

[Vorpal]

Vorpal said,
took her with me to the shop, and opened some rice cakes to keep her quiet while I picked up enough stuff for an evening meal

When did this practise become acceptable and it appears quite the norm for some families.
I Often see this, children and sometimes adults opening packages and eating the contents before reaching the checkout. We wouldn't dream of doing it and our kids would have had to wait until the food was paid for before consuming.

It wasn't and isn't the norm for us, but under the circumstances, I didn't think Mini V would make it through the shopping without getting upset. The cashier grumbled about it. I think it wouldn't scan & she had to enter the code manually. That seemed minor compared to the the whole situation with them making me unpack my shopping while Mini V was having a toddler meltdown.

[jgurney]

This is a good example of bad parenting is it not. Kids are no different to when I was one, but parents attitude to risk and the media scaremongering about .. has not helped. Also the generation of car loving sedentary parents set the example to their children as most of us do not feel is a great example.

Not always under the control of individual parents. Between the ages of 13 and 16 I made 5 solo cycling tours staying at YH's. My grandson, now 13, cannot do the same because YHA will not take in anyone under 16 without an adult (and seem to be trying to discourage solo 16-17 year olds as well). That is not due to my daughter having any unrealistic "attitudes to risk" or being "car loving" but to YHA's rules.

It's sad to see the ... young mothers of today, swiping their smartphones and with their children from several fathers

Why don't you like mothers swiping touch-screen phones?

Do you have any data about the proportion of women under 25 who have children by multiple fathers?

If by "young" you mean under 21, they are increasingly rare at all, let alone those with children by multiple fathers.
In 1952, 20% of women had given birth at least once by their 20th birthday. The figure fell to 15% in 1957, 10% in 1991, and 7% by 1995 (most recent data I could find). Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2015-11-10

[old_windbag]

cannot do the same because YHA will not take in anyone under 16 without an adult

This reflects on the society we have created, many organisations may also have similar rules. The derogatory word removed from my original post wasn't actually derogatory but an abbreviation of a category of individual that causes fear and mistrust due to their behaviour. The media and our better communications fuel that fear and also aid those who have those traits to perhaps pursue their interests. Even I have felt the suspicion of individuals due to my circumstances, and even I have felt suspicious of others behaviour. When I was young we understood "stranger danger" very well and we went out unsupervised on the basis of trust and often being in a group. Today more and more organised cases are coming to light so I guess organisations that are focused around the young have to be more circumspect in light of the impact of any incidents. I've had to go through the standard registration checks to allow interaction with young people. From the parents side I've had every barrier possible put forward as to why their children can't walk or cycle to school. Something that was "normal" when I was that age.

Why don't you like mothers swiping touch-screen phones?

I think that focusing time on the importance of smartphone apps beyond interacting with children is becoming more prevalent. I think the interaction with children from an early age is important and to ignore them due to the more distracted lifestyles that our wonderful technology( that isn't sarcasm ) gives us is not the way forward. I personally feel it will have a detrimental effect. Do I have a smartphone, yes, do I sit swiping it looking at snapchat,facebook, whatsapp etc no. Do I take calls at the checkout, no, do I have it on loud ring, no silent mode. It's a useful communication tool when I need to use it, but I use it sparingly and in a manner to be respectful to others( buses, trains.. ). Yet I get useful function from it without feeling in any way restricted by my disciplined use.

Where single mothers etc are concerned the statistics can be a little misleading. Women in the 40's/50's having children by 20yrs would be in a very high percentage of cases be married, it was a stigma not to be. Today the number of women having a child by 20 may be lower( 7%?) but the likelihood they are single will be much higher. So in the past the benefit system was not as generous and there was a greater "pressure" to be married, today that is not the case so a lot of money is paid out to sustain the missing half of the arrangement. Our society is more accepting of that but it doesn't make it right, both parents have a 50% financial responsibility to bring up a child whether together or not. It was their relationship not the states, it's a lifechoice to split up. It may be the areas I frequent but if you could see the people and demography of those places you'd see first hand what I describe. Areas of high unemployment, low incomes, benefits, obesity and health issues.

[jgurney]

Do I have a smartphone, yes, do I sit swiping it looking at snapchat,facebook, whatsapp etc no. Do I take calls at the checkout, no, do I have it on loud ring, no silent mode. It's a useful communication tool when I need to use it, but I use it sparingly and in a manner to be respectful to others( buses, trains.. ).

So do many mothers.

the statistics can be a little misleading. Women in the 40's/50's having children by 20yrs would be in a very high percentage of cases be married, it was a stigma not to be. Today the number of women having a child by 20 may be lower( 7%?) but the likelihood they are single will be much higher.

Undoubtedly true. The increasing tendency to have children outside marriage is by no mean confined to the young.
The data is not misleading at all. It is measuring age, not marital status, and it's key message is that young motherhood in any form is becoming rarer.
I had a look for some more recent data. The conception rate for women under 18 in England was 2.28% in 2014, and since not all conceptions result in births that implies an even lower young birth rate. Areas with high levels of under-18 pregnancy showed some significant falls in recent years, e.g. Kingston-upon-Hull's u-18 conception rate fell from 8.46% in 1998 (then the highest in the country) to 3.93% in 2014, and the highest by 2014 was 4.3% (Nuneaton).
(https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... -residence)

It may be the areas I frequent but if you could see the people and demography of those places you'd see first hand what I describe.

My wife was a midwife in exactly such a district and had some 'repeat clients' who had three babies by different fathers by the time they turned 19, but she saw exactly what those figures show - their numbers are falling over the last 20 years.

[Freddie]

When I wrote "there are some individuals I hate" I was putting a twist on magnolia's earlier post - anyway if I do harbour that feeling towards any person, that's a personal matter, not for this forum. End of.

Hopefully nobody here. I mean, unless you have actually met them in the flesh, and have taken a disliking to them personally, rather than just what they type on the internet.

It seems to me, that subsequent posts on this thread testify incontrovertably that most forummers think mercalia was totally out of order in his earlier remarks about children and disabled people in supermarkets - even if they were made in jest. Time for a retraction and apology, I think?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it chimes with my own, is that correct? I thought this was just a modern thing, what with 'safe spaces' and anti-free speech movements at universities these days, but obviously the sentiment goes back a bit further.

What is it with this intolerance coming from left-leaning people of differing opinions? It is rarely agree to disagree these days, but my way or the highway.

Why should he retract or apologise for what he has said, is he is not entitled to his opinion?

This is not 'hate mail' - just a firm reprimand.

A firm reprimand, really. Who made you head prefect?

I'm sorry the forum isn't one big love-in of righteous, flower power hippies, but that doesn't mean anyone with a view not shared by the majority has transgressed (or is wrong by default) and is in need of correction for their 'wrong think'.

Where is your tolerance?

[PH]

Who made you head prefect?

Indeed, you've still got the badge

[meic]

I read Mercalia's post and as a parent of a child I can quite relate to it.
It has a lot in it that rings so true. It is just not "playing the game" of being nuanced and including the now compulsory sensitivities.
In short he is quite correct to point out that there are some very disgusting children and disabled people in our supermarkets, who really need to be taught manners (and a violence based education is appealing) what he failed to mention is that there are also an equal number (proportionally) of able bodied adults who are just the same.
It is the act of selecting out certain groups which is revealing.
Why the tolerance of the same acts by the main group? Even if we condemn a member of the main group we will find a different way to distance ourselves from them. They are dog owners, smokers, drunk, Jaguar drivers etc. But if they are children, wheelchair bound, Muslim, speaking a funny language or black, we need look no further.