It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Manchester Guardian / the Independent!

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brynpoeth
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Nov 2017, 10:09am

HaroldBriercliffe wrote:Public sector job ads keep the Graun ticking over.
Awful paper otherwise.


There are hardly any job ads now, twenty years ago society and education had hundreds (Wednesdays + Tuesdays)
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meic
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 10:40am

What could I read instead?

RT News. If our government think it worth spending £10 million to stop you hearing what they have to say, then there must be something worth seeing there. The American government hates it even more.
It reminds me of how we used to consider that the Russians' criminalisation of the possession of some of our publications was one of the key determiners of who were the good guys and who were the bad guys.
We used to be The Land of the Free where free speech was an unalienable right.

Not that you should believe RT news any more than you should believe the Guardian, treat them all with suspicion.
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 11:19am

meic wrote:
What could I read instead?

RT News. If our government think it worth spending £10 million to stop you hearing what they have to say, then there must be something worth seeing there. The American government hates it even more.
It reminds me of how we used to consider that the Russians' criminalisation of the possession of some of our publications was one of the key determiners of who were the good guys and who were the bad guys.
We used to be The Land of the Free where free speech was an unalienable right.

Not that you should believe RT news any more than you should believe the Guardian, treat them all with suspicion.


Well I for one am going to stick with the Guardian.

I remember a certain Malaysian Airliner.
And then there's the outright suppression of dissent in Russia today.

A quick look at RT in relation to Syria showed about as biased reporting as you could wish for.
Happy days with Assad and Putin!!

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meic
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 11:44am

Nobody has to worry about you "Questioning More" then.
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 12:11pm

I guess not.
Though many that know me would probably not describe me as a "non questioner".

I remember only too well the Malaysian airliner.
The fag smoking, gun toting drunks that surrounded the crash site and wouldn't allow International and neutral air accident Inspectors access. For a week.
I know what happened there.

Then there's the chemical weapons usage in Syria. Sanctioned from the very top without doubt.

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meic
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 12:32pm

I know what happened there.

That makes you the only one!

The various parties and intelligence agencies all have something which they disagree on.

If you were just taking your information from one side on this, you are almost certainly misinformed.
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 1:03pm

Sometimes I wonder about you Meic.
What do you believe happened, then?

I am not the only one and I am certain that a bunch of piss-head roughnecks were given a Russian BUK missile carrier " to play with. With tragic results.


Painstaking analysis has shown that to be the case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysi ... _Flight_17

brynpoeth
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Nov 2017, 1:09pm

We really really can not know what happened in a far away place where most of us have never been, years later maybe no-one can know

A travel writer once recommended: when one arrives in a new place, get the local paper and a pint to start with

I drink tea, not beer, but I can understand and check what I read in the local paper in my own language

Now I am concerned that the roundabout at Penmaenmawr may be replaced by a motorway-style junction, can't see where it could fit, any ideas?
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 1:25pm

brynpoeth wrote:We really really can not know what happened in a far away place where most of us have never been, years later maybe no-one can know


Of course you can know.
Why ever not?
It's not rocket science (excuse sad pun).
You may never know which individual pressed the button.

The facts are pretty straightforward.
Someone simply pressed a button and three hundred innocent people ( lots of children) lost their lives.
The investigation was very thorough and fair IMV.
I believe the investigators were professional and dedicated to getting some justice for the victims.

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meic
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 1:43pm

Painstaking analysis has shown that to be the case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysi ... _Flight_17


There are quite a few scenarios portrayed there, not just the ones (of the many) suggested by either the Guardian or RT. With the exception of the German Intelligence all the evidence offered by the appointed authorities suits their national agenda.

There is a lot of mixing up facts and claims in that Wikipedia page because the facts are not actually known.
Russia's involvement, if any at all, is in supplying weapons which is a commonplace act by all the major powers. The Guardian then extends that through the dodgy link of it being those weapons that were used to mean responsibility for the act itself.

There is NO impartial media out there supplying honest unadulterated facts, you need to read all the sides rather like at a court case before failing to pick out where the truth actually lies, but at least you can avoid the most blatant porkies.
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 2:05pm

I read a good deal about the incident after it happened.
It horrified me.
I saw footage of those armed men preventing access to the crash site.
And I came to the conclusion that It was shot down by a missle.
All by my little unimaginive self!!

The cockpit shows exactly the pock-holed damage expected from such multiple small fragment collision.
A RT journalist (Sara Firth) resigned over the "lies" perpetrated by said Org.about the event. She had been employed by them 5 years.

I cannot really understand why anyone should not choose to accept it at it's face value. The evidence is totally damning.

All the convoluted complex conspiracy stuff had been shown to be just crap.

It's so simple- a guy with a belly full of Vodka made an error. Or did he do it deliberately?

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meic
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 2:21pm

I read a good deal about the incident after it happened.
It horrified me.
I saw footage of those armed men preventing access to the crash site.
And I came to the conclusion that It was shot down by a missle.
All by my little unimaginive self!!


You only have access to the information that is supplied to you. Any information that is inconvenient will be withheld from you, if it can be. The presence of alternative news sources makes it much more difficult to with hold such information from you. Of course if you can be convinced not to even look at them, or even to think they must be untrue if they contradict the given line, that is almost as good.

Of course the rebels holding the area protected the crash site, it would have been far worse if they did not and let people run all over it trashing evidence and stealing valuables. The fact that you accept such behaviour as bad, shows that you are being led by propaganda.
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 2:42pm

That is not the case.
They prevented access by international air accident investigators for a week.
And were obstructive far longer.
And they prevented by means of arms access by the International Peace Keeping corp led by a neutral Swiss who also wanted to secure the site.

I think you should now read the Wiki account.
And the painstaking Dutch report.

I am not trying to be difficult here.
But it is right that the truth come out though and blame be laid at the guilty party's door.
Why would anyone not wish that to be the case ??

I fail to see anything substantive in all the "Conspiracy by the West" stuff.
Not a scrap of hard evidence.
The hard evidence all points to Russian involvement.

While I am deeply sceptical about my own country's ability to be "trustworthy",
I am not so far down that road that I believe that they could have a hand in such a heinous action, merely to discredit Putin.

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meic
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 3:13pm

That is not the case.
They prevented access by international air accident investigators for a week.
And were obstructive far longer.
And they prevented by means of arms access by the International Peace Keeping corp led by a neutral Swiss who also wanted to secure the site.

It was a combat zone, this is pretty normal practice for people in a combat zone.
Also the term "international" is not internationally accepted.
As you point out there appear to have been more than one group seeking to secure the site from the rebels.

I did skim through the Wiki account previously and its main source of references is newspaper reports.
The obvious way that people will interpret it is that every piece from "their" newspapers is the true account and everything from the "other" newspapers is propaganda.
This newspaper referring is mingled in with the more reliable sources and less reliable sources, so as to fill in the gaps and finish the desired picture with lots of pushing an agenda balancing on top of a few points of fact.
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meic
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 3:15pm

But it is right that the truth come out though and blame be laid at the guilty party's door.
Why would anyone not wish that to be the case ??

Because the Guardian has a very, very strong anti-Russia agenda that it pushes at every possible chance.
Yma o Hyd