It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Manchester Guardian / the Independent!

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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 3:40pm

But I am not talking about or indeed quoting from the Guardian.
It's thread drift and I take full responsibility!

I put it to you- the only reason why we don't fully know what happened that day is because of the unacceptable obstructive behaviour of the Pro Russian rebel groups.
They prevented a quick and full investigation at the site.
They, in all probability, cleaned the site in that first week of as much shell fragment material as possible, though some was still subsequently found.

I think that speaks volumes.

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meic
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 8:03pm

the only reason why we don't fully know what happened that day is because of the unacceptable obstructive behaviour of the Pro Russian rebel groups.

It was in the middle of their territory, when Putin offered to send observers to watch our and the US elections to check for free and fairness, they were not given permission. So the only reason we dont know what happened is because they were denied access. Which is of course a ridiculous thing (to Western ears) to say unless you reverse the positions.

You are caught in a self-reinforcing loop. You will believe anything bad that the papers say about the pro-Russian Ukrainians because they are the bad guys and you know that they are the bad guys because you read it in those same papers. Such propaganda is obvious when seen from the other side or even the outside, like the Daily Mail and cyclists for example.
We know that other countries spread misinformation to their people, but believe ours dont.
We know that all through history our government, newspapers and authorities have lied about all sorts of things and each and every time they say it doesnt happen any more and each and every time a new one is revealed people still think it doesnt happen any more now.
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brynpoeth
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Nov 2017, 8:06pm

Years later nothing can be proved I think

Finding the truth about Hillsborough took 28 years, one imagines even that is not finished yet
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 8:24pm

brynpoeth wrote:Years later nothing can be proved I think

Finding the truth about Hillsborough took 28 years, one imagines even that is not finished yet

YVMV
Hillsborough has been cleared up as far as I am aware.
Took too long and folks fought for the truth to come out. The truth shall out!
It was a combination of human error and quite complex unforeseen circumstance.
Surely you are not suggesting it was deliberate?

I don't really see it's relevance to single simple an act of war. A clear war crime.

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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 8:41pm

meic wrote:
the only reason why we don't fully know what happened that day is because of the unacceptable obstructive behaviour of the Pro Russian rebel groups.

It was in the middle of their territory, when Putin offered to send observers to watch our and the US elections to check for free and fairness, they were not given permission. So the only reason we dont know what happened is because they were denied access. Which is of course a ridiculous thing (to Western ears) to say unless you reverse the positions.

You are caught in a self-reinforcing loop. You will believe anything bad that the papers say about the pro-Russian Ukrainians because they are the bad guys and you know that they are the bad guys because you read it in those same papers. Such propaganda is obvious when seen from the other side or even the outside, like the Daily Mail and cyclists for example.
We know that other countries spread misinformation to their people, but believe ours dont.
We know that all through history our government, newspapers and authorities have lied about all sorts of things and each and every time they say it doesnt happen any more and each and every time a new one is revealed people still think it doesnt happen any more now.


Oh really you are now comparing an act of war with fair and free elections.( not Mr Putin's strongpoint anyway)
It's just not relevant.IMV.


The pro Russian militias prevented access to a civilian airliner crash site where 300 bodies were lying strewn around in the sun.
Those wanting and needing access were neutral highly qualified peacekeeping personnel. And professional air crash investigators from a mix of nations.
Make no mistake Meic those Militias had something they wanted to hide.
And they did it for a long time.

I feel you are starting to make excuses for the inexcusable.

Who do you think did it?
For you never offer an opinion, merely saying that the judgement of a great many professionals from many different countries is wrong.
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 25 Nov 2017, 8:49pm, edited 1 time in total.

brynpoeth
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Nov 2017, 8:46pm

Oh dear the Grauniad is going downhill

It reports about a Syrian family who like the rain in their Welsh village. What village?

The article proper says they live in Narberth, *a small market town*

Can a place be a village AND a town? Or does the Grauniad make mistakes?
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 9:49pm

I think it most likely that troops commanded by Igor Girkin shot it down believing it to be an enemy aircraft. It is all the rest of the stuff that has been thrown in on top of that which I am much more dubious about. They were involved in ongoing military actions against Ukranian military aircraft during that period in that zone.
Did his troops have and know how to use aircraft recognition IFF squawks as the American Navy would be able to?
Look at how differently Wikipedia treats the two cases of firing on a civilian aircraft by mistake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 10:07pm

brynpoeth wrote:Oh dear the Grauniad is going downhill

It reports about a Syrian family who like the rain in their Welsh village. What village?

The article proper says they live in Narberth, *a small market town*

Can a place be a village AND a town? Or does the Grauniad make mistakes?


At least I dont doubt the truth of that story, because I am in a position to verify it personally.
They have even been receiving some cycling tuition from my friends. Apparently in Syria cyclists dont have to stick to the side of the road, they dont even have to stay on the correct side of the road.
Now that little misunderstanding has been cleared up, they have been enjoying some local cycling.
Though none have ventured out with us on the club ride yet.
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 25 Nov 2017, 10:33pm

meic wrote:I think it most likely that troops commanded by Igor Girkin shot it down believing it to be an enemy aircraft. It is all the rest of the stuff that has been thrown in on top of that which I am much more dubious about. They were involved in ongoing military actions against Ukranian military aircraft during that period in that zone.
Did his troops have and know how to use aircraft recognition IFF squawks as the American Navy would be able to?
Look at how differently Wikipedia treats the two cases of firing on a civilian aircraft by mistake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655


What stuff has been thrown in unnecessarily on top?
So you do agree that the Russians (or pro Russian rebels) shot it down!

I think the Wiki link to the Iran Airliner is pretty balanced. It could in no way be described as pro American in its assessment.

One difference is that the Russians still refuse to accept responsibility.
Whereas the Americans have done so.
This has, quite rightly IMV, soured relations between Europe and Russia.

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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 25 Nov 2017, 11:28pm

One difference is that the Russians still refuse to accept responsibility.

That is because they didnt do it. The Americans clearly did shoot down the Iranian aircraft.
They even gave the guy who did it a medal.
Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989




that the Russians (or pro Russian rebels)

They are not the same people.
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 26 Nov 2017, 9:27am

Russian made.
Russian manned (a bit hi-tech for untrained dick heads) .
Russian commanded.
It's presence in the area Russian sanctioned
.
I can't see how one could come to any other conclusion but Russian responsibility.
Enlighten me please?

Then there's that smoke and mirrors stuff put about by the Russian propaganda machine.
Cowardly. And speaks volumes.
Perhaps the most despicable and distressing was the report that the Dutch had loaded the plane with corpses. To be shot down or blown up to discredit the Russians.
To be perfectly frank, anyone taken in by such stuff really needs to have their "gullibility filters" reset.
They are in danger of losing contact with reality.


Just as an afterthought, a little something I prepared earlier.
((Obfuscation
Yes, by means of so much media. So many points of view, conflicting interests.
It gets to the point where one can't believe or trust anyone or anything?

Yet sometimes what actually happened is very straightforward and simple and it is the subsequent obfuscation by all the various interested party's that muddy the waters.
So the more you read the less informed you become, a paradox, and yet there is more than a grain of truth in it.
Perhaps one's gut feeling for the truth is just as or maybe even more reliable?))

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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 26 Nov 2017, 10:37am

Russian made.
Russian manned (a bit hi-tech for untrained dick heads) .
Russian commanded.
It's presence in the area Russian sanctioned


There is an application of double standards here. When Western backed "freedom fighters" make a mistake or deliberately commit atrocities with weapons supplied by us, with our military "advisors" attached to their organisation, the responsibility for their actions doesnt fall on us.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... n-war.html
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby meic » 26 Nov 2017, 10:41am

Perhaps one's gut feeling for the truth is just as or maybe even more reliable?))

Exactly what most Trump supporters thought.

Lay the groundwork right and people have already decided what happened and who is to blame before it even occurs.
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 26 Nov 2017, 11:22am

meic wrote:
There is an application of double standards here.

But they did do it, yes?
Two posts up you said:- "they didn't do it".

I think you would like to argue the kettle isn't black!
Hmmmm...
None so blind as those who will not see?
Back at the beginning of our discussion you accused me of not being a " non- questioner".
I am starting to think that may be a more apt thing to say about yourself.

It happened.
I know who did it.
A thing you said at the beginning was something that " made me the only one"!

Yet you, in spite of all your "questioning", have come, when pushed, to the self same conclusion.
The Russians did it.

They have lied and cheated and tried to sneak out of any responsibility in the most underhand and despicable way.


That double standards exist is not the issue here.
You and I are old and wise enough to know that.

"But when the trousers are around the ankles.......
watch out for small predators."
Old Russian Proverb

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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 26 Nov 2017, 11:35am

meic wrote:
Perhaps one's gut feeling for the truth is just as or maybe even more reliable?))

Exactly what most Trump supporters thought.

Lay the groundwork right and people have already decided what happened and who is to blame before it even occurs.


I think it may be disingenuous to suggest only Trump supporters are affected.

I think you sort of missed the nub of my drift.

It was a kind of general and philosophical point.
One I have been curious about.
For example,why are many modern elections, referenda, so close to 50%/50% in their results?
It is after all the result one would get from a random event like tossing a coin.

I have my own ideas why that should be.