On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

[thirdcrank]

... I think the teenagers would rather be dead than be seen on a bike (even an ebike)....

I'm happy to defer to your knowledge of a much younger generation than mine. I was only making guesses.

[reohn2]

I think Horizon is massively mistaken

i am not ttrying to catch you out, but this is a quote from a post of yours on a parallel thread:

IMO Ebikes/Ecycling needs a section of it's own and not an infringment this section.
I think Ebikes popularity is about to explode in the UK much as it's done in the rest of Europe.
To ignore it and try to lump it in with another section is to miss it's appeal as another facet of cycling in its own right IMO
My 2d's worth

I'm genuinely confused here and might have got the wrong end of the stick so a clarification would be good.

The thing is Mrs R2 and myself have cycled most of our lives,failing health has recently limited our enjoyment of tandeming.An e-bike convesion kit for our Circe tandem,itself a comprmise to the Santana and Cannondale tandems we've recentlly with very heavy hearts had to sell due to being unable to use.
Theres no contradiction,only necessity to continue cycling together,e-bike technology affords us that.
That doesn't mean to say the majority of people currently cycling will adopt the same approach to cycling that we have.
To clarify our personal feelings about e-biking,it will for us be a compromise which is unnecessary for the majority,it will also be too costly an investment for those who'll wonder where and how often they'll ride.
TBH IMO the vast majority in the UK see cycling as a problem not a solution.
That attitude will take a lot of shifting out of their psyche,people who cycle know that,that's why I mention facilities prviously,if they're good quality and convenient,potential cyclists and exsisting cyclists will use them,and pave(literally)a way for the e-bike which would be a convenient means by which to travel short to medium(2 to 10miles)journeys for whatever reason not just a sunny Sunday afternoon along a dead end roughish path that leads nowhere.
Until that happens people won't be so willing to spend on something they aren't convinced will be worth it.
IMO where the UK stands on cycling,e-bike or not,is that it knows the cost but not the value of the bicycle ,that in itself prevents its progress.

EDIT:- thinks.... Where utility cycling is popular on the continent such as NL people cycle into old age and it seems that their need for the freedom and exercise cycling has been part of those people's lives on well established cyclepath networks,which has been the driving force behind the e-bike,which is something that generally isn't found in UK society as we are very carcentric.

Edited for clarity and typos

[reohn2]

........ I think the teenagers would rather be dead than be seen on a bike (even an ebike).
Parents are more easy to be blackmailed into acting as chauffeurs than expecting teenagers to independently take care of their own mobility needs.

Street cred for one
And parents fear of their offspring's safety on such a vulnerable means of transport
The car rules OK?

[jgurney]

I cant see that the law would be either written or interpreted in that way. That the same vehicle which is a cycle when ridden by an adult becomes a motorcycle when ridden by a child.

It doesn't. A vehicle either is or isn't a motorcycle according to it's construction, regardless of the age of the rider.

More likely there is a separate regulation banning its use by under 14's ...... In effect it would still be forbidden on Sustrans tracks but not because it is a "motorcycle".

Exactly so. Under-14's cannot ride EAPC's on public highways or in public places. Therefore someone under 14 riding an EAPC on a Sustrans path could no more rely on the claim that "it's not a road" than could one riding a motorcycle there.

[meic]

There is a big difference between the severity of the regulations and this affects their enforcement.
If the restriction on under 14's is of the same order of severity as failure to meet lighting regulations, it may be just as ignored as they are.

In practice "its not a road" means people get away with quite a lot. I was passed by a guy recently with a very small petrol engine powering his bike, he would not have tried that, I imagine, on the roads near by.

[Cyril Haearn]

A powered two-wheeler is much more like a bike than a car
I would be very surprised if many upgraded from car to e-bike

[reohn2]

A powered two-wheeler is much more like a bike than a car
I would be very surprised if many upgraded from car to e-bike

Not even if E-bikes were more convenient(for short trips)?

If trips were quicker and more pleasant I think they would,that's not to say people would sell their car for an E-bike but IMO if the latter were more convenient they'de buy and use one.
The problem is,it isn't preasantly and isn't likely to be in the future if the past is anything to go by.
IMO good quality infrastructure is key to getting people out of cars for short 3 to 5mile trips and unless theres a big change in local and national government thinking it ain't happening any time soon.

[horizon]

Upwards - I hadn't even thought about youngsters. You have to be 14 to ride an EAPC on the road. That I presume leaves all the Sustrans paths, cycle routes, canals .....

It does not, any more than under-14's can ride motorcycles in those places. 'Road' in the context above does not mean 'place where motor vehicles go', but means 'places where the public can go by any means'. A person under 14 can ride an EAPC in the same circumstances that they can ride a motorcycle - on private property without public access, with the landowners agreement.

I hadn't really thought about the under 14s. AFAIK about a third of bikes bought in the UK are children's bikes but how far up the age scale this goes I don't know. I would have thought that EAPCs will penetrate below the age 14 barrier, won't be strictly regulated off-road and maybe microtised for younger riders - after all it is the adults who want/need the 250W + and I don't see why this cannot be reduced for smaller, lighter, younger riders.

[horizon]

The other would be people who see cycling on the telly and somehow think the bike draws you along and get a rude shock. An electric bike might make their dreams come true.

It's the perfect storm: you can have the wind in your hair, be free of traffic jams, need no insurance, get fit and healthy and sail up the hills. It really is a dream - except that it is now real. EAPCs have drawn a wonderful legal line between motorbikes and cycles. Unfortunately they have blurred the line between powered and unpowered bicycles. It's just a small attachment . . .

[reohn2]

The other would be people who see cycling on the telly and somehow think the bike draws you along and get a rude shock. An electric bike might make their dreams come true.

It's the perfect storm: you can have the wind in your hair, be free of traffic jams, need no insurance, get fit and healthy and sail up the hills. It really is a dream - except that it is now real. EAPCs have drawn a wonderful legal line between motorbikes and cycles. Unfortunately they have blurred the line between powered and unpowered bicycles. It's just a small attachment . . .

Is there anything inherently wrong with that though?
EAPCs give assistance they're not a substitute for pedaling,so there's an element of exercise and whereas an enthusiastic cyclist would relish climbing a 10% hill say,most people won't,as much as they won't riding in traffic.Assistance helps with the former but not the latter.

[Flinders]

I work in Copenhagen, Amsterdam and other big cycling cities and have yet to see an electric bike in any of them.

Like I said, it isn't Autumn yet, only a few leaves turning gold.

I am estimating that 90% of bike sales will be battery powered within 5 years and that seeing someone on an unpowered bicycle will become an oddity.

I won't be editing my first post so that we can return to the thread in 2022 and see if I was right! And yes, there are people who don't have mobile phones, still use film in their cameras and wind up their alarm clock every night: the 10%.

I can see why commuters would like them- they extend the distance some people can manage, or, as in the case of Mr Flinders whose workplace has no showers, enables him to cycle to work in a decent time without getting there in a lather.
But as I ride my bike to keep fit, I can't see any reason to want one..

[old_windbag]

I can't see any reason to want one..

Old age.... it'll gradually creep up on you and rather than give up cycling you may wish to cycle the flat but have the assist on hills where your own power output has decreased. Or your knees/joints are worn out so mashing up hills would cause more damage than good.

It's surprising e-assisted bikes aren't more popular as it seems many able bodied have taken to the mobility scooter, often seen parked outside the vaping shop as the owner gets more herbal highs .

[kwackers]

... I think the teenagers would rather be dead than be seen on a bike (even an ebike)....

Not round here.
Can't go anywhere in the NW now without being confronted by one or more youths wheelying down the roads. In some places gangs of dozens of them cycle down the road "taking the lane", in fact taking all lanes much to the chagrin of tax paying motorists.

(A quick google suggests it's not just the NW, here's a report from Brum. http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/watch-more-100-teen-cyclists-11929028)

So I doubt that kids would rather be dead than seen on a bike - although looking at the way things are going a few might be seen dead on a bike...

Oh - eBikes, great things. See more and more of them I think the only reason there isn't a bigger uptake is because most folk are still unaware or don't realise what they really are. A few more years before we hit a tipping point I think.

[thirdcrank]

... It's the perfect storm: you can have the wind in your hair, be free of traffic jams, need no insurance, get fit and healthy and sail up the hills. It really is a dream - except that it is now real. EAPCs have drawn a wonderful legal line between motorbikes and cycles. Unfortunately they have blurred the line between powered and unpowered bicycles. It's just a small attachment . . .

To use one of your own phrases, I'm not trying to catch you out but somewhere above you said that this thread was only about the validity of your prediction. That looks to me like a very emotive value judgment about these bikes

[horizon]

... It's the perfect storm: you can have the wind in your hair, be free of traffic jams, need no insurance, get fit and healthy and sail up the hills. It really is a dream - except that it is now real. EAPCs have drawn a wonderful legal line between motorbikes and cycles. Unfortunately they have blurred the line between powered and unpowered bicycles. It's just a small attachment . . .

To use one of your own phrases, I'm not trying to catch you out but somewhere above you said that this thread was only about the validity of your prediction. That looks to me like a very emotive value judgment about these bikes

(Rapid response team in action )

It wasn't meant to sound like that. I was looking at it from the point of view of the punter. I don't actually thinlk EAPCs are a good thing but there are other threads running at the moment where such a view will attract accusations of purism so I'm trying to steer away from a judgement.

So yes, this is prediction not a paen to EAPCs.