Should Nelson be removed from Trafalgar Sqr?

[Ben@Forest]

If you can find one black Brit who see Nelson as a monster I'd be very surprised.

Not only that around the plinth at Nelson's Column are images of sailors from the Battle of Trafalgar, one of whom is black. When historians look into the lives or representation of ordinary black people in Britain's history he always crops up. The Secret London website notes:

On the south of Nelson’s Column is a relief showing his death at Trafalgar in 1805. On the left of the dying Nelson is a black crewman holding a musket and searching the enemy rigging for the French sniper who shot him. There were 18 nationalities on board HMS Victory, including nine West Indians and one African.

[mjr]

How many ppl actually knew before this came up that he was pro-slavery? It's not as well known. That's one distinction that places the two sets of statues on different settings. Nelson is certainly a more accepted historical figure in the UK across the British nations.

Yeah, I think a stronger argument for removing Nelson is to apologise to Denmark for the so-called pre-emptive strike on Copenhagen that he led in 1801... and I'm not sure how many would agree with even that.

[AlaninWales]

How many ppl actually knew before this came up that he was pro-slavery? It's not as well known. That's one distinction that places the two sets of statues on different settings. Nelson is certainly a more accepted historical figure in the UK across the British nations.

Yeah, I think a stronger argument for removing Nelson is to apologise to Denmark for the so-called pre-emptive strike on Copenhagen that he led in 1801... and I'm not sure how many would agree with even that.

I'll go along with that, once Denmark have apologised for Lindesfarne . Come to think of it, the Lord Mayor of York should probably participate in that apology, after all they make such a lot from promoting their Viking heritage!

[mjr]

Yeah, I think a stronger argument for removing Nelson is to apologise to Denmark for the so-called pre-emptive strike on Copenhagen that he led in 1801... and I'm not sure how many would agree with even that.

I'll go along with that, once Denmark have apologised for Lindesfarne . Come to think of it, the Lord Mayor of York should probably participate in that apology, after all they make such a lot from promoting their Viking heritage!

Wasn't Lindesfarne burnt in the 800s, about 100 years before the Kingdom of Denmark formed? I doubt any of those leading the raid have a statue in Copenhagen, either!

[AlaninWales]

Yeah, I think a stronger argument for removing Nelson is to apologise to Denmark for the so-called pre-emptive strike on Copenhagen that he led in 1801... and I'm not sure how many would agree with even that.

I'll go along with that, once Denmark have apologised for Lindesfarne . Come to think of it, the Lord Mayor of York should probably participate in that apology, after all they make such a lot from promoting their Viking heritage!

Wasn't Lindesfarne burnt in the 800s, about 100 years before the Kingdom of Denmark formed? I doubt any of those leading the raid have a statue in Copenhagen, either!

793, but then the suggestion is to apologise to Denmark for stuff that was >100 years before anyone here was born. As for the question of "a statue", Denmark clearly plays on its "Viking Heritage" http://www.visitdenmark.com/denmark/history/trail-vikings and from the same site

Denmark is Viking country, full of opportunities for Viking adventures of your own.

Obviously this isn't a serious suggestion, it simply puts apologising for history into context.

Wanting to keep statues in prominent places, which were erected specifically to express and increase the subjugation of part of your own nation is a different thing entirely: That demonstrates a desire to maintain the subjugation instead of consigning it to history.

[mjr]

Wanting to keep statues in prominent places, which were erected specifically to express and increase the subjugation of part of your own nation is a different thing entirely: That demonstrates a desire to maintain the subjugation instead of consigning it to history.

So... those statues of Oliver Cromwell...?

[AlaninWales]

Wanting to keep statues in prominent places, which were erected specifically to express and increase the subjugation of part of your own nation is a different thing entirely: That demonstrates a desire to maintain the subjugation instead of consigning it to history.

So... those statues of Oliver Cromwell...?

By modern law a war criminal (as many of those he fought would also be). The statue erected in Parliament, to commemorate a leading figure in the foundation of the power of the gathering of representatives and reduction in the influence of the monarchy was arguably not there to suppress Catholic influence or to ensure Catholics understood they were second-class citizens (if the intention was to do so, it has failed).

Move it to a museum? Why not? It could be seen by more people

[mjr]

Wanting to keep statues in prominent places, which were erected specifically to express and increase the subjugation of part of your own nation is a different thing entirely: That demonstrates a desire to maintain the subjugation instead of consigning it to history.

So... those statues of Oliver Cromwell...?

By modern law a war criminal (as many of those he fought would also be). The statue erected in Parliament, to commemorate a leading figure in the foundation of the power of the gathering of representatives and reduction in the influence of the monarchy [...]

So how does one justify the other statues?

I'm not sure that Cromwell was "a leading figure in the foundation of the power of the gathering of representatives" because continuing the Rump Parliament was rather dodgy, then he dissolved that by force when it defied him, replacing it with a parliament of more-or-less appointees rather than representatives and finally accepting appointment as dictator for life. He definitely reduce the influence of monarchy... he reduced the monarch by a head!

The other statues of people around Parliament seem to be Kings Richard I (memento of the Great Exhibition) and George V, prime ministers Robert Peel, Benjamin Disraeli, Winston Churchill, David Lloyd George, Henry Temple, George Canning and Edward Smith-Stanley, foreign presidents Abraham Lincoln and Nelson Mandela, suffragette Emmeline Pankhurst, Indian independence movement leader Mahatma Gandhi and defeated latterly-anti-apartheid prime minister of South Africa Jan Smuts. It seems easy to make an argument that Oliver Cromwell is very much the odd one out and should be moved to make way for the next statue (Thatcher? ).

[bertgrower]

WC justified the continuration of slavery in Sierra leone which did not end until 1928. So take down WC statue.

[AlaninWales]

Whataboutery again! I didn't realise there were so many Trump supporters here, echoing his warped views.

My point was that each Cromwell statue would have to be examined on its merit, its current use and symbology and a decision made, which may well include removing to a museum. Each however is a moot issue and different points of view are possible. Should all swastikas be removed from public buildings? Probably not, but keeping the debate open allows the history of the svastika to be known, including how it was polluted.

[Audax67]

How many ppl actually knew before this came up that he was pro-slavery? It's not as well known. That's one distinction that places the two sets of statues on different settings. Nelson is certainly a more accepted historical figure in the UK across the British nations.

Yeah, I think a stronger argument for removing Nelson is to apologise to Denmark for the so-called pre-emptive strike on Copenhagen that he led in 1801... and I'm not sure how many would agree with even that.

FWIW when Nelson attacked it was too late to set sail and meet him, so guns were transferred onto rafts and the Danes fought from these. After the battle they were abandoned, and eventually became waterlogged and sank. In the 1970s/80s they were rediscovered in the mud, where the wood had been preserved by the lack of oxygen. Some went to museums, but some was sold for use in furniture.

In the mid-80s I was invited to dinner at the home of a client in Kolding, where my host told me the story. His table, of course, was a slab of oak about 10' long, cut from one of the rafts. "But I'll let you off."

[Cyril Haearn]

What about Gladstone of Penmaenmawr? He was chopping wood on his estate at Hawarden when a message came that he would be PM. *My task is to pacify Ireland* he declared

I think it is good that statues and street names cause us to think about history, apologies for things that happened hundreds of years ago (witch-burning for example) are good too

If we do not learn from our history we will be condemned to repeat it

[mercalia]

WC justified the continuration of slavery in Sierra leone which did not end until 1928. So take down WC statue.

strange. I thought that Sierra Leone atleast Freetown was set up for freed slaves from the British Royal Navy naval squadron that was based there to catch the slaver ships after the abolition of slavery in the British Empire in 1833? The West Africa Squadron.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/royal_navy_article_01.shtml

[Cunobelin]

Records are sketchy, and limited as often men were only recorded with their country of origin, nit the actual ethnicity.

It is known however that whatever the ethnicity and whether they were preyed or volunteers, some 1/3 of the sailors at Trafalgar and serving onto Victory were not English, and there were 9 West Indians listed on Victory's books. There were also some on board including the wife of the Master Gunner


As above, the contribution is marked with the presence a black sailor on the frieze of the column



Many other contemporary paintings of the death of Nelson also place coloured sailors in prominent positions

[blackbike]

Whataboutery again! I didn't realise there were so many Trump supporters here, echoing his warped views.

President Trump is quite a popular person.

That's how he got his current job.