Religion(sorry)we've been debating politricks and I..

[reohn2]

...read this article on the BBC news:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41150792
Is it worth the effort discussing the subject without it desending into acrimony?
Personally I lost any belief in God some years ago,and when I look at religion dispasionately from a distance I wonder how I ever believed in the first place.

[mercalia]

good to know even more so that belief is very low amongst the young. maybe soon christianity consigned to a minority pasttime.

there was a very interesting programme on BBC4 longtime ago called "Did Jesus Die?" and made a good case that he didnt die that it takes longer than the 3-6 hrs the gospels say, to die with crusifiction ( J was a strong man - carpenter- not some middle aged soft living fat well todo who would have a heart attack at the drop of a hat) - takes days as you die of suffocation, when the legs can no longer support the body due to pain, as arms stretched out compresses the chest making it hard to breathe. All the refs to resurrection and ascension were added in AD 200 by the establishment to cement their power ( not what happend but who saw it), much as the pope has done with the doctrine of direct line back to peter?

[landsurfer]

I have stood on top of high mountains.
Blizzards and ice surround me ... and through gaps in the weather i have looked down upon the earth ....
I have been in peril.
I have walked away from the fire fight, intact ...
Brought life into this world ... and taken it ....

I belive in God .... but not sure whose ...
But my God ...

[reohn2]

Landsurfer
Could you define that God?

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Landsurfer
Could you define that God?

Superior being

Terrible grammar .......me that is

[Tangled Metal]

I was considering about modern Christianity and its practitioners. I'm talking about the more evangelical / happy clappy types wearing their religion on their sleeves for all to show. Especially considering how these ppl might get hooked.

I was thinking about pressure selling of religion especially Christianity. It struck me that ppl really get hooked in times of emotional stress. Say hard times. Then I thought that's why Salvation Army and other Christian organizations that support the vulnerable do it, to get ppl hooked.

Then I thought about Jesus preaching to and doing miracles for the outsiders, those in need. Was he just a Charlatan pressure selling his cult for personal gain? All the Christian storyline was made up afterwards perhaps.

Does any of that strike a chord with you? What if all religion is exploiting ppl? All religion using pressure selling techniques and going after the weak, the poor, those with a need for emotional support of some kind.

Then what is the point of these secular churches? Are they really any better? They need money, where does that money come from? Their practitioners obviously but isn't it exploiting a need for emotional crutch too?

[Vorpal]

I don't know if there is a god or not. I'm inclined to think that there is something more than just us, but I'm not sure what it is.

I am not, however, a big fan of organised religion. I have no problem with what people believe, or gathering together to talk about it. But when it comes to ancient books that contradict themselves from one section to another, and people taking it as literal; well, it's all a bit much for me.

Religion is great for some people as guidance in how to live their lives. It is a violation of human rights to use as guidance for how *make* anyone live their lives.

[Psamathe]

I was considering about modern Christianity and its practitioners. I'm talking about the more evangelical / happy clappy types wearing their religion on their sleeves for all to show......

My local village church holds services once every 2 weeks and maybe 20 people turn up ('cos it covers 3 other parishes who alternate their services) and a few years ago they needed £10k to repair their bell. And they raised and spent their £10k on their bell whilst only 10 miles away people are sleeping in doorways, a few might find an overnight shelter ... but local church has their bell (but they rarely even use it these days, the 2 services a month don't bother).

So has Christianity got its priorities right ?

And that before you even start examining the basis for their beliefs and their impact on others.

Ian

[kwackers]

I believe in evolution.

We've made great strides into understanding how life got started. We know a lot about the initial chemistry, enough so we can put forward some pretty decent theories as to what was initially required for it to exist and start.
We understand a lot more about how genes code for proteins and by analysing those proteins we can identify at what point various 'features' evolved and in fact how many times they evolved (most 'features' evolved separately on several occasions - including eyes). We can identify evolutionary processes happening now and know how things like speciation work.
We understand enough about the other creatures we share the planet with to know that far from being some form of supreme being we're just another creature who gained a few extra skills and lost a few too.

In contrast we have no evidence at all for a god - any god.
Even if a god existed it isn't a god in the biblical sense. Perhaps it triggered the initial big bang but if it did so it didn't do it to create us, we're a fluke, a chemical accident in an unimaginably complex and huge universe. Probably one of trillions of civilisations that have come and gone in the 14 billion years the universe has existed.
I suspect the remains of countless civilisations dot cold dead stars, one day so will ours.

Religion once provided an explanation and give us a sense of supremacy whilst in reality the explanation was crap and the supremacy false.
You don't even have to spend long studying the history of it to see how much of it is simply made up on the fly.

And then of course there's the idea that we need to spend a fair bit of our time thanking some being for allowing us to exist else we're damned for eternity....
Doesn't sound too sane to me - but then apparently the victor writes history, so if there was a big fight between 'good' and 'evil' it makes me wonder which side really won...

(That was a good rant, enjoyed that! )

[Psamathe]

If we want to believe in things there is no physical evidence for then I'd go for the one that we are nothing more than a computer simulation - which some would argue is statistically more likely that we are a physical reality. Theory does not deny that there is a physical reality, in fact there has to be at least one to run the simulations. But we love simulations. We use computers to simulate loads of things, ecological modelling, weather modelling, galactic evolution modelling, etc., etc. For our supposed one reality we create many many simulations and those simulations are limited by our technological abilities with computers.

So, given in a few hundred years our computers will be beyond what we can even comprehend now and assuming those around in a few hundred years are as keen on modelling and simulations as we are now and they'll be running loads of models. And in a few thousand years ...

So for one reality you have vast numbers of simulations so statistically it is more likely we are a simulation than a reality - just basic probabilities.

Better to chose something there is at least statistical evidence for than no evidence for?

Ian

[rjb]

They tried to beat it into me at school with the result that when i left at 18 i had had enough and was a non believer. I dont have a problem with people who do believe only those who try and preach that there brand is correct. Personally i dont believe god exists but with right and wrong tied up with religion one can see how some think it holds the fabric of society together. With an education and career in science and engineering it does make one question the existance of god as no direct evidence exists but as 95% of everything is made up of dark matter and dark energy there are a lot of things we still dont know. Happy hunting.

[Abradable Chin]

“Religion is but a desperate attempt to find an escape from the truly dreadful situation in which we find ourselves," said the astronomer Fred Hoyle.

[reohn2]

I don't know if there is a god or not. I'm inclined to think that there is something more than just us, but I'm not sure what it is.

Why do you think there is?

[Psamathe]

I don't know if there is a god or not. I'm inclined to think that there is something more than just us, but I'm not sure what it is.

Maybe those in the reality who are designing and running the simulations on their computers?

Ian

[Abradable Chin]

I thought J.C. himself didn't approve of religion, so we're agreeing with him now and that proposition I am struggling to get my head around.
For balance, are we allowed to include religions like new atheism or third-wave feminism in the discussion?

If it's not religion we're really wanting to discuss, but actually the irrationality of believing nowadays in a supernatural being, then maybe we should also discuss other untestable hypotheses frequently held by supposedly rational people, like the Everett interpretation of QM and our living in a multiverse, or that everything is a computer simulation, or, as mentioned above, there is something that makes all the numbers right, but we can't see it in any way, and we've given it the name, nugget of purest dark energy?