Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

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AlaninWales
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Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby AlaninWales » 2 Oct 2017, 4:32pm

I think it was Psmanthe who said that the EU would oppose our exit as hard as possible because it might encourage others to think of splitting. I wonder whether this is what they believe should have happened during our referendum: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-41463955/catalonia-referendum-violence-as-police-block-voting

landsurfer
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby landsurfer » 2 Oct 2017, 4:41pm

It's the sort of thing you expect in a third world dictatorship not a major European country.
The lack of condemnation is worrying, especially from the EU.
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meic
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby meic » 2 Oct 2017, 4:47pm

They were merely upholding the rule of law.
I think that is what countries say when they are dealing with civil disobedience.
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AlaninWales
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby AlaninWales » 2 Oct 2017, 5:02pm

Rejecting the outcome of a vote as 'unconstitutionally held' is political dialogue and (according to the Spanish courts) a constitutionally correct p.o.v.

Beating people for expressing their disagreement with the organisation of your state is not political dialogue, it is violent oppression and likely to produce counter violence. I do wonder whether the latter is what the Spanish authorities want to achieve.

reohn2
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby reohn2 » 2 Oct 2017, 5:06pm

landsurfer wrote:It's the sort of thing you expect in a third world dictatorship not a major European country.
The lack of condemnation is worrying, especially from the EU.

+1
The violence used by the police against peaceful citizens in that video is appalling,and should be condemned by the UK government.
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reohn2
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby reohn2 » 2 Oct 2017, 5:09pm

AlaninWales wrote:..........Beating people for expressing their disagreement with the organisation of your state is not political dialogue, it is violent oppression and likely to produce counter violence. I do wonder whether the latter is what the Spanish authorities want to achieve.

Quite!
I thought the same TBH
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Psamathe
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby Psamathe » 2 Oct 2017, 5:18pm

meic wrote:They were merely upholding the rule of law.
I think that is what countries say when they are dealing with civil disobedience.

That's what I've seen reported as well. The proposed referendum was contrary to the Spanish Constitution (I've even seen it reported that the EU has agreed that it was contrary to the Spanish Constitution) and the Spanish courts had ruled that as well.

So, without appreciating the options available, Spain may have been in something of a Catch-22 situation. Do they uphold their Constitution and decisions of their courts or do they allow it to go ahead (which also sends a strong message) and then start arguing it was un-constitutional anyway.

From reports it would seem that polls say the majority of Catalans don't want independence anyway (I seem to remember reading it was around low-40% wanting independence).

All that said, it does seem like a complete mess but I'm actually uncertain of whose making. You could argue that the Spanish Gov. handled it very badly or that they were only upholding the Constitution and decision of the courts. Similarly, you might also be able to argue that given the Constitution and decision of the courts it was pretty daft of the Catalan Government to go ahead with the referendum once it was obvious the Spanish Gov were going to (try) and enforce the decision of the courts. There might even be an aspect that support for Catalan independence has grown because of what happened and maybe that was a consideration when the Catalan Gov decided to (try) and go ahead anyway with the referendum (even long after it was clear that any result would be self selecting).

But then where does one cast the blame for violence? We've seen similar in the UK not that long ago either (somebody was even killed by a Police Officer, somebody who was just trying to get home, not even part of the protests). Was the violence ordered or was it a few officers who maybe should not be officers.

Whilst there has been some coverage in the news, I'm surprised at how little and surprised that Farange and his supporters of brexit have not been appearing everywhere blaming the EU and wittering on about how we are "well out of it".

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JohnW
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby JohnW » 2 Oct 2017, 5:47pm

I think we have to be careful - division and disunity in the free world are on the march - we're going to regret destroying unity with Europe and the Catalonians may also regret what they've done if they do get their own way. Hatred and evil are also on the march - there's I.S. for a start - and the need for decent, right-minded free nations (however imperfect we are) to stand together is increasing day by day.

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meic
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby meic » 2 Oct 2017, 5:59pm

There does seem to be some disagreement in Spain over what "free" means and what constitutes a "nation".
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Spinners
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby Spinners » 2 Oct 2017, 6:44pm

Shocking scenes. Is this state sponsored violence against it's own people, perhaps, some legacy issue of having been led by a Dictator within living memory?
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pwa
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby pwa » 2 Oct 2017, 6:49pm

It is one of those moments when, in a non-jingoistic way, you are glad you live in a country where we do some things better. I didn't much care about Catalan independence before, but I now hope Spain loses its grip on Catalonia.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby PDQ Mobile » 2 Oct 2017, 7:17pm

Actually it's Spanish style and pretty abhorrent it is too.
But it is an internal Spanish affair.

There are a great many European countries that do things much better.

I have in my lifetime witnessed such scenes in the UK. And historically we have little to be complacent about.
Ask a Liverpool docker or a coal miner.

JohnW
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby JohnW » 2 Oct 2017, 7:57pm

meic wrote:There does seem to be some disagreement in Spain over what "free" means and what constitutes a "nation".

Same question could be asked of the UK.

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bovlomov
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby bovlomov » 2 Oct 2017, 8:33pm

AlaninWales wrote:Beating people for expressing their disagreement with the organisation of your state is not political dialogue, it is violent oppression and likely to produce counter violence.

And also likely to increase support for secession. They could have just ignored the outcome of the referendum, and dealt with the resentment through political means.

Sounds like a most cack-handed response. I know there are Francoists in the Spanish government, but I didn't think they'd take it so literally.

pwa
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Postby pwa » 2 Oct 2017, 9:17pm

JohnW wrote:
meic wrote:There does seem to be some disagreement in Spain over what "free" means and what constitutes a "nation".

Same question could be asked of the UK.


It is unthinkable that pressure for Scots or Welsh independence could result in London sending in masses of riot police. That might have been possible in the past but not today. You don't win hearts and minds that way. I am shocked that a modern West European state can behave that way.

I don't know how the people of Catalonia think, but if that happened in Cardiff the membership of Plaid Cymru would multiply overnight.