Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

[mjr]

Rajoy tries to troll the Catalans into letting him impose direct rule http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41582469

[Psamathe]

Rajoy tries to troll the Catalans into letting him impose direct rule http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41582469

I take that as the Spanish Gov trying to find out if Catalonia has actually declared independence or not. It does seem very ambiguous. News reports I saw last night seemed uncertain and reports read today again seem unsure if independence has been declared or not. One report even said that independence had been declared but that Catalonian Gov was seeking another legal referendum!

My interpretation is that the Catalonia President has put himself between a rock and a hard place and is wiggling uncertain how to get out. He has a significant portion of the population wanting independence, a significant portion not wanting independence, he has promised acts that would be illegal and make him liable to arrest and if he followed his previous promises it may easily make thing worse for Catalonia (e.g. businesses moving out, EU membership lost, etc.).

Ian

[AlaninWales]

Ambiguity is a decent starting point for negotiation, absolute positions are not. I realise that some people (particularly given the nature of 'debate' in today's 'News' media) struggle to understand this, but anyone with real-world experience of negotiation will recognise the truth there.

Absolutist states seek absolute solutions. Spain is clearly not seeking peaceful coexistence with people who disagree with the present (weak) government, but threatening force if people who have a different political viewpoint do not back down. It is educational to observe who supports such a position.

[Psamathe]

.....It is educational to observe who supports such a position.

A very ambiguous comment as you don't identify who you consider "who" to refer to. If your "who" refers to other countries/EU then I don't think the comments and allegiance other countries have indicated is surprising.

If your "who supports" refers to press and reporters, no real surprises though I've seen less bias in those with clear political "slant" than one sees for UK issues. That said I've not heard the BBC "ex" Conservative reporters who are probably the worst and I don't read the Daily Mail. C4 were a bit one sided but more because they could only really get to talk to one side!

If your "who supports" refers to people on this forum, be careful you are not confusing "seeing both sides" as "support".

Ian

[Tangled Metal]

Declared but suspended for talks, right? Nice way of saying that we've done it but we didn't mean it so please don't take what powers we do have away. Let's talk instead

Yeah! That'll work! Let's talk Mr rajoy. Not a chance now because Madrid won.... For now!

BTW in some ways Madrid has done well. The independence side could have negotiated more devolved powers. If they followed Scottish example and Madrid wasn't as authoritarian a gradual creep of powers towards Catalonia just as the union devolves more and more powers to Scotland. Reach a point when the union might as well just let Scotland go. I think that Madrid could have stopped or at least delayed this outcome somewhat.

[mjr]

Nothing further from the UK since Boris's "Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us" put us alongside the likes of Serbia and Azerbaijan in not condemning the violence. Even Turkey condemned the violence!

[Psamathe]

Nothing further from the UK since Boris's "Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us".

A bit off-topic but I find it infuriating when the Conservative Party dismiss Boris' incompetence with a "Boris is Boris". For me Boris is clearly and repeatedly demonstrated he is not capable of doing the job he has been assigned. I can only assume he stays in post (in any post) as part of May's attempts to remain in power - which is disgusting. We deserve the most capable to such crucial roles in society, not incompetents appointed for the personal ambitions for one person's career and to the massive detriment of the country.

Sorry, rant over.

Ian

[mercalia]

So the clock is now ticking - 5 days to respond or article 155 is it will strip Catalonia of home rule? Things just worse and worse? Spain old order Franco style - if Spain is so confident that the mass of Catalonians dont want independance why fear a referendum? Would be the logical development to a nation made up of separate kingdoms in the C21, a coming of age to ratify matters.

[Ben@Forest]

Well, they've done it. I hope all commentators who point to how well 'Europe' - a weirdly generic term because we are of course in Europe - is managed, governed or run compared to the somehow shoddy UK take note of how well Catalonia's independence has come about.

As an aside I think when the Conservative Party

...dismiss Boris' incompetence with a "Boris is Boris". For me Boris is clearly and repeatedly demonstrated he is not capable of doing the job he has been assigned. I can only assume he stays in post (in any post) as part of May's attempts to remain in power - which is disgusting. We deserve the most capable to such crucial roles in society, not incompetents appointed for the personal ambitions for one person's career and to the massive detriment of the country.

They took this from Tony Blair who opined that 'John is John'. Because duffing up voters,having extra-marital affairs with your secretary, playing croquet in working hours and driving in a Jag rather than walking 300 yards is the dint of a responsible politician.

[Stevek76]

Well, they've done it. I hope all commentators who point to how well 'Europe' - a weirdly generic term because we are of course in Europe - is managed, governed or run compared to the somehow shoddy UK take note of how well Catalonia's independence has come about.

Are they? If anything this is being used more by other commentators to demonstrate how supposedly undemocratic all of (continental) europe is (see topic thread for example).

Eitherway, trying to extend the affairs of one state to the entirety of Europe is clearly anywhere from fruitless to disingenuous regardless of who's doing it.

My own view is that most governments tend to be pretty incompetent to one degree or another, but there's probably a benefit to having that power spread out among a number of levels as it stops one of them doing too much damage.

[mjr]

Well, they've done it. I hope all commentators who point to how well 'Europe' - a weirdly generic term because we are of course in Europe - is managed, governed or run compared to the somehow shoddy UK take note of how well Catalonia's independence has come about.

Not sure what commentators you mean. As I've outlined above, I feel Spain has a serious constitutional problem in not having an equivalent of the EU's Article 50 and the PP government in Madrid is now reaping the whirlwind sown by the party's founder 40 years ago when he co-wrote the constitution.

Amuwau, in the words of the song, it's only just begun... Will Catalan public services obey Madrid's instructions post-article-155? If not, will Madrid try to send in the troops? Will the Catalans resist again?

They took this from Tony Blair who opined that 'John is John'. Because duffing up voters,having extra-marital affairs with your secretary, playing croquet in working hours and driving in a Jag rather than walking 300 yards is the dint of a responsible politician.

That's an interesting comparison with "Boris is Boris". Tony had to keep John to keep the lefties on-side, while Theresa has to keep Boris to keep the Brexiters on-side. Is "X is X" now the textbook way to respond to any criticism of a politician you can't stand but who can't be fired without basically starting a civil war in your party?

[PDQ Mobile]

Well, they've done it. I hope all commentators who point to how well 'Europe' - a weirdly generic term because we are of course in Europe - is managed, governed or run compared to the somehow shoddy UK take note of how well Catalonia's independence has come about.

As an aside I think when the Conservative Party

...dismiss Boris' incompetence with a "Boris is Boris". For me Boris is clearly and repeatedly demonstrated he is not capable of doing the job he has been assigned.

They took this from Tony Blair who opined that 'John is John'. Because duffing up voters,having extra-marital affairs with your secretary, playing croquet in working hours and driving in a Jag rather than walking 300 yards is the dint of a responsible politician.

It's a Spanish affair.
I agree with Stevie; trying to extend the internal affairs of one state to include all of Europe is disingenuous.


Re. Prescott.
As I remember it the ("duffed") guy threw the first egg and big John got one in in the heat of the moment, though it was pretty equal at separation!

Affairs with secretaries, so what? Private stuff.
I am not a prude or a moralist. It happens sometimes for perfectly understandable reasons. The French do it better I think. That is they think it normal and don't moralize about it much.
Rees Mogg, "eat your heart out!"


Croquet, well rather a civilized game of croquet than selling arms on private trips to Duarte or other wholly undesirable regimes like the present Govt do.

Jags; Govt. ministers have them,and all sorts of other prestige cars.
Perk of the job I guess,
only a Ford anyway.

[mercalia]

I see the Scottish postion is not the UK one? They understand and are sympathetic. Now what would happen if Scotland recognises Catalonia? Would the UK sack the Scottish parliament and do direct rule?

What is wrong with the Spanish? Seems like Franco still informs their attitudes? Hiding behind the law is pathetic and is what modern tyrants like Mugabe does?

[mercalia]

The BBC interviewed a spokeman about new elections and the possibility that the same party would be returned with a demand for independance - The spokesman sheepishly replied there would be a NATIONAL referendum on the matter ie no way would Catalonia be allowed to leave Spain. You can imagine what the Scots would have done had the UK tried that trick? So things have been sewed up real tight ? Franco is back

[Psamathe]

....Hiding behind the law is pathetic and is what modern tyrants like Mugabe does?

Do you think Governments should just ignore the law when it suits them ?

Ian