Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

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Tangled Metal
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by Tangled Metal »

Hmmm! Spanish constitution is on the back of Franco era?

Well I would wager that if you look back far enough most nation's laws are built on questionable laws. Once England was effectively a dictatorship (albeit an absolute monarchy or Oliver Cromwell's protectorate IIRC). Our current laws are built on the back of laws dating back centuries. At what point do you move on from being hung up on laws made under dictatorship and accept the laws that have been developed since?

My personal view is that on the whole Spain has been a democracy since their constitution. I could be wrong there. However even with questionable approaches like with Catalonia there is a legal framework. That framework (constitution and constitutional courts) has systems to review the constitution. That happened and the court determined the referendum was illegal under the constitution. This is well reported.

Put simply there's laws in place. Do you want rule of law or not?
pete75
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by pete75 »

mjr wrote:I'm just arguing for rule of law and not having different groups deciding to ignore basic human rights and UN resolutions that do not suit their personal agendas.



So you know for a fact that all in Catalonia or even a majority want independence from Spain? What about the basic human rights of those that don't?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
mercalia
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by mercalia »

pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:I'm just arguing for rule of law and not having different groups deciding to ignore basic human rights and UN resolutions that do not suit their personal agendas.



So you know for a fact that all in Catalonia or even a majority want independence from Spain? What about the basic human rights of those that don't?

the ref was about finding out what the Catalonians wanted - Spain decided to scupper it and would not have accepted it even had stayers voted but the outcome been independance?
Psamathe
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote:......
My personal view is that on the whole Spain has been a democracy since their constitution. I could be wrong there. However even with questionable approaches like with Catalonia there is a legal framework. That framework (constitution and constitutional courts) has systems to review the constitution. That happened and the court determined the referendum was illegal under the constitution. This is well reported.

Put simply there's laws in place. Do you want rule of law or not?

That reflects my own thoughts (though you've explained it far better that I did). I cannot appreciate all the details of the reasons for Catalonia seeking independence from Spain (or Barcelona seeking independence from Catalonia). From reports I've seen it sounds related to an anti-austerity feeling given that Catalonia is wealthier and a net contributor to Spain's finances. And even with that shorter term consideration, the pro-independence vs pro-union sounded pretty even. But whatever reports, whatever my own reflections it is nothing to do with me so my opinions are irrelevant.

But as you say "Do you want rule of law of not?" - seems a crucial aspect to the situation and how things need to move forward.

Ian
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mjr
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by mjr »

Tangled Metal wrote:Hmmm! Spanish constitution is on the back of Franco era?

Well I would wager that if you look back far enough most nation's laws are built on questionable laws. Once England was effectively a dictatorship (albeit an absolute monarchy or Oliver Cromwell's protectorate IIRC). Our current laws are built on the back of laws dating back centuries. At what point do you move on from being hung up on laws made under dictatorship and accept the laws that have been developed since?

I'm not sure, but surely you can see a difference in democratic legitimacy between a constitution that's dating back centuries and one that's dating back a few decades?

Tangled Metal wrote:My personal view is that on the whole Spain has been a democracy since their constitution. I could be wrong there. However even with questionable approaches like with Catalonia there is a legal framework. That framework (constitution and constitutional courts) has systems to review the constitution. That happened and the court determined the referendum was illegal under the constitution. This is well reported.

Firstly, I'd agree that on the whole Spain has been a democracy since their constitution - note since the constitution. It is incorrect to claim the constitution was developed in a democratic manner - there are deep flaws in how it was done and some of them are relevant to this crisis.

Secondly, there seems to be no method for self-determination under the constitution, which implies that constitution is itself illegal.

Tangled Metal wrote:Put simply there's laws in place. Do you want rule of law or not?

Yes, but international law should prevail in this case.

pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:I'm just arguing for rule of law and not having different groups deciding to ignore basic human rights and UN resolutions that do not suit their personal agendas.


So you know for a fact that all in Catalonia or even a majority want independence from Spain? What about the basic human rights of those that don't?

No, I don't know that for a fact but there is no way under Spain's so-called law to determine it, which is wrong.

What about the basic human rights of those that do? This is not a new subject - there are now decades-old precedents of how we resolve the question of whether something is one state or two in a legal manner and it's not by sending in the riot police to beat up one side. Spain seems to be something like 60-70 years behind on this.
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Psamathe
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote:.....
Tangled Metal wrote:Put simply there's laws in place. Do you want rule of law or not?

Yes, but international law should prevail in this case.
.....

In which case take it to that international court and have that aspect/clause(s) of the Constitution rules on. And if that international court finds against those clause(s) of the Spanish Constitution then have a legal referendum. If that international court upholds those clause(s) of the Spanish Constitution then you need to democratically decide to try and change the Constitution.

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mjr
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by mjr »

Psamathe wrote:
mjr wrote:.....
Tangled Metal wrote:Put simply there's laws in place. Do you want rule of law or not?

Yes, but international law should prevail in this case.
.....

In which case take it to that international court and have that aspect/clause(s) of the Constitution rules on. And if that international court finds against those clause(s) of the Spanish Constitution then have a legal referendum. If that international court upholds those clause(s) of the Spanish Constitution then you need to democratically decide to try and change the Constitution.

We seem to be going round in circles, so I refer people back to the final paragraph of viewtopic.php?p=1179899#p1179899
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Psamathe
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
mjr wrote:.....

Yes, but international law should prevail in this case.
.....

In which case take it to that international court and have that aspect/clause(s) of the Constitution rules on. And if that international court finds against those clause(s) of the Spanish Constitution then have a legal referendum. If that international court upholds those clause(s) of the Spanish Constitution then you need to democratically decide to try and change the Constitution.

We seem to be going round in circles, so I refer people back to the final paragraph of viewtopic.php?p=1179899#p1179899

mjr wrote:.....
Trying to delay Catalan self-determination by tying it up in court cases would be immoral and illegal. It's a very negative approach.

If illegal then I'd expect a court to rule as such and then there can be a legal referendum - problem solved. But I thought the courts had already made a ruling? And if other courts are applicable then the Catalan Government could presumably appeal to those courts.

Ian
pete75
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by pete75 »

mjr wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
mjr wrote:.....

Yes, but international law should prevail in this case.
.....

In which case take it to that international court and have that aspect/clause(s) of the Constitution rules on. And if that international court finds against those clause(s) of the Spanish Constitution then have a legal referendum. If that international court upholds those clause(s) of the Spanish Constitution then you need to democratically decide to try and change the Constitution.

We seem to be going round in circles, so I refer people back to the final paragraph of viewtopic.php?p=1179899#p1179899


That is merely your opinion.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by Tangled Metal »

I think the key to this is independent courts. Democracy is at least partly checks and balances, often using courts to clear up discrepancies and disputes. The Madrid government went to court and got a ruling. Used that ruling to ignore the illegal referendum (court decreed illegal status).

The Catalonian government lost that case. I would bet they had good legal representation. This enough to come up with legal arguments such as some claim on here, namely denying them the referendum / self determination is against international law. Catalonian authorities never took that argument. Why? Could it be because it doesn't actually apply to them?

Catalonia has self determination through local devolution. They are part of a democratic nation, Spain, too. Any self determination probably refers to a country. Catalonia hasn't been a country for some time.

Whatever the truth of these sorts of arguments is I must ask whether they were presented in front of an independent court? I suspect they weren't or they did not convince the courts based on laws of Spain and international law or any other law that could be applied. If you lose the legal arguments do you just ignore them and carry on?

Put simply, did the Catalonian argue their case? Did they win or lose their case? If they lost should they accept it or can they legally ignore it?
mercalia
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by mercalia »

Tangled Metal wrote:I think the key to this is independent courts. Democracy is at least partly checks and balances, often using courts to clear up discrepancies and disputes. The Madrid government went to court and got a ruling. Used that ruling to ignore the illegal referendum (court decreed illegal status).

The Catalonian government lost that case. I would bet they had good legal representation. This enough to come up with legal arguments such as some claim on here, namely denying them the referendum / self determination is against international law. Catalonian authorities never took that argument. Why? Could it be because it doesn't actually apply to them?

Catalonia has self determination through local devolution. They are part of a democratic nation, Spain, too. Any self determination probably refers to a country. Catalonia hasn't been a country for some time.

Whatever the truth of these sorts of arguments is I must ask whether they were presented in front of an independent court? I suspect they weren't or they did not convince the courts based on laws of Spain and international law or any other law that could be applied. If you lose the legal arguments do you just ignore them and carry on?

Put simply, did the Catalonian argue their case? Did they win or lose their case? If they lost should they accept it or can they legally ignore it?



neither had Israel - about 2000 years I think?
pete75
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by pete75 »

It seems that much of the motivation for Catalonian independence is down to simple greed. Catalonia is the wealthiest part of Spain and many there want to keep all that wealth rather than some being spent in the poorer parts of the country.
A bit like those here who back so called Londependence.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Psamathe
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by Psamathe »

pete75 wrote:It seems that much of the motivation for Catalonian independence is down to simple greed. Catalonia is the wealthiest part of Spain and many there want to keep all that wealth rather than some being spent in the poorer parts of the country.
A bit like those here who back so called Londependence.

I have seen the similar reports, though they also said that austerity from "Spain" was strengthening that sentiment - feeling (or political spin) that they were "suffering" whilst subsidising the poorer rest of Spain.

These days I often think the feelings of public anger can be created or amplified by politicians saying anything to further support for their own political ideologies.

Ian
mercalia
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by mercalia »

so Mr Rajoy visits Barcelona

Speaking at a campaign event in Barcelona for his Popular Party (PP) on Sunday, Mr Rajoy called on the participation of the "silent majority" to "convert their voice into a vote".

"We must recover Catalonia from the havoc of separatism," he added.


well thats a very politic way to win over the large number who dont think that way?

He clearly not the man for the job? and doesnt look like the understands the numbers?

Mr Rajoy's PP won just 8.5% of the vote in the last regional elections two years ago.
Psamathe
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Re: Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

Post by Psamathe »

mercalia wrote:so Mr Rajoy visits Barcelona

Speaking at a campaign event in Barcelona for his Popular Party (PP) on Sunday, Mr Rajoy called on the participation of the "silent majority" to "convert their voice into a vote".

"We must recover Catalonia from the havoc of separatism," he added.


well thats a very politic way to win over the large number who dont think that way?

He clearly not the man for the job? and doesnt look like the understands the numbers?

Mr Rajoy's PP won just 8.5% of the vote in the last regional elections two years ago.

What "numbers" doesn't he understand ?

Ian
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