Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

[pete75]

Re. Prescott.
As I remember it the ("duffed") guy threw the first egg and big John got one in in the heat of the moment, though it was pretty equal at separation!

He didn't do badly though reacted far more quickly than the police and the other guy was thirty years younger. Great failure on the part of the Police - letting someone get close to and able to throw something at the Deputy PM. Only an egg but could have been an explosive device.
If someone tried that with the Vice President of the US they'd be shot dead by the guys responsible for his security.

[mercalia]

what the yanks are saying
'Nothing says democracy like jailing everyone the people elected': Colbert mocks Catalan independence crisis

[youtube]jyHNcTS_LBo[/youtube]

and quite a lot of stuff here.

https://www.thelocal.es/tag/catalonia

[mercalia]

so here we have it on black and white thanks to the BBC

"But what that means in effect, is that the entire population of Spain - 47 million people - would vote on whether Catalonia should have the right to self-determination.

Alfonso Dastis said the legal change might help resolve the Catalan crisis for future generations.

But it is a far cry from what deposed Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont had called for, the right for Catalans only to decide."

lesson 1) how to seem to be democratic but prevent outcomes you dont want. enlarge the electorate who will decide to include those who agree only with you.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41913520

[Psamathe]

.....
But it is a far cry from what deposed Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont had called for, the right for Catalans only to decide."

lesson 1) how to seem to be democratic but prevent outcomes you dont want. enlarge the electorate who will decide to include those who agree only with you.
....

Or, if you want to change the constitution of a country then do you let a small region alone decide on those constitutional changes for the entire country?

Ian

[mjr]

Or, if you want to change the constitution of a country then do you let a small region alone decide on those constitutional changes for the entire country?

I don't think "Together for Yes" and its allies care about changing Spain's constitution - why should the rest of Spain have a vote on Catalan self-determination? Isn't that contrary to UN Resolutions?

[Psamathe]

Or, if you want to change the constitution of a country then do you let a small region alone decide on those constitutional changes for the entire country?

I don't think "Together for Yes" and its allies care about changing Spain's constitution - why should the rest of Spain have a vote on Catalan self-determination? Isn't that contrary to UN Resolutions?

I was suggesting the rest of Spain has a say in the Constitution of Spain.

My thoughts are nothing to do with whether Catalonia should be independent of Spain or if Barcelona should be independent of Catalonia, it's about rule of law. Spain has a legal constitution that was decided democratically. If one area decides it does not like that democratic decision then by law they are not free to just ignore that law and break it like there was no such law. If people don't like the Constitution fight to have it changed but legally (as I understand it) one small group cannot just ignore bits of the Constitution that do not met their personal agenda.

If the Constitution is contrary to international law or conflicts with UN resolutions fight to overturn those conflicting parts (there might then be a good case).

Ian

[mjr]

My thoughts are nothing to do with whether Catalonia should be independent of Spain or if Barcelona should be independent of Catalonia, it's about rule of law. Spain has a legal constitution that was decided democratically.

Does it? Think carefully: do you want to argue that Franco's Fundamental Laws (under which the constitution drafters were elected) were a democractic decision-making system? Or that a referendum offering only a choice between the flawed constitution and continuing the Franco-era system gives democratic legitimacy to it?

Also, doesn't a UN Resolution (the right to self-determination) overrule what Spain claims to be law (no possibility of self-determination)?

[pete75]

[

Also, doesn't a UN Resolution (the right to self-determination) overrule what Spain claims to be law (no possibility of self-determination)?

A UN resolution generally overrules nothing. The only time it will overrule anything is if, to use a nineteenth century term, one of the great powers decides to back and enforce it and another great power does not directly oppose it. In practical terms this usually means what will the US or Russia do about it which in this case is nothing.

[Psamathe]

My thoughts are nothing to do with whether Catalonia should be independent of Spain or if Barcelona should be independent of Catalonia, it's about rule of law. Spain has a legal constitution that was decided democratically.

Does it? Think carefully: do you want to argue that Franco's Fundamental Laws (under which the constitution drafters were elected) were a democractic decision-making system? Or that a referendum offering only a choice between the flawed constitution and continuing the Franco-era system gives democratic legitimacy to it?

Also, doesn't a UN Resolution (the right to self-determination) overrule what Spain claims to be law (no possibility of self-determination)?

I don't know if UN resolutions override Spanish constitution. If it does (or there is a case to be heard that it does), take it to court and fight the Constitution. You can't just have one part of a country unilaterally deciding that part of the Constitution that does not fit their personal ideology can be just ignored as though it did not exist.

I'm not arguing for or against or justifying Franco's anything, UN's anything, Spanish anything, Catalonian anything, Barcelona's anything. I'm suggesting that the Constitution needs to be obeyed and if there are conflicts then take those to court and have the matter resolved and don't just have some people breaking the law/ignore bits of the Constitution that do not suit their personal aims at the time.

Ian

[Ruadh495]

.....
But it is a far cry from what deposed Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont had called for, the right for Catalans only to decide."

lesson 1) how to seem to be democratic but prevent outcomes you dont want. enlarge the electorate who will decide to include those who agree only with you.
....

Or, if you want to change the constitution of a country then do you let a small region alone decide on those constitutional changes for the entire country?

Ian

Well "we" did. The choice to maintain or break up the United Kingdom was only offered to Scottish voters (OK, not such a small region...).

[pete75]

.....
But it is a far cry from what deposed Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont had called for, the right for Catalans only to decide."

lesson 1) how to seem to be democratic but prevent outcomes you dont want. enlarge the electorate who will decide to include those who agree only with you.
....

Or, if you want to change the constitution of a country then do you let a small region alone decide on those constitutional changes for the entire country?

Ian

Well "we" did. The choice to maintain or break up the United Kingdom was only offered to Scottish voters (OK, not such a small region...).

Yes but it was offered to them by the government of the entire United Kingdom not by unilateral decision of the Scottish parliament.

[Psamathe]

.....
But it is a far cry from what deposed Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont had called for, the right for Catalans only to decide."

lesson 1) how to seem to be democratic but prevent outcomes you dont want. enlarge the electorate who will decide to include those who agree only with you.
....

Or, if you want to change the constitution of a country then do you let a small region alone decide on those constitutional changes for the entire country?

Ian

Well "we" did. The choice to maintain or break up the United Kingdom was only offered to Scottish voters (OK, not such a small region...).

I thought the UK had a different constitution to Spain and under UK constitution a Scotland Independence referendum was allowed. But the different Spanish Constitution does not allow the same to happen for Catalonia in Spain (and their constitution was democratically voted on).

As an aside: different "to" or different "from"? (never was much good at grammar).

Ian

[mjr]

My thoughts are nothing to do with whether Catalonia should be independent of Spain or if Barcelona should be independent of Catalonia, it's about rule of law. Spain has a legal constitution that was decided democratically.

Does it? Think carefully: do you want to argue that Franco's Fundamental Laws (under which the constitution drafters were elected) were a democractic decision-making system? Or that a referendum offering only a choice between the flawed constitution and continuing the Franco-era system gives democratic legitimacy to it?

Also, doesn't a UN Resolution (the right to self-determination) overrule what Spain claims to be law (no possibility of self-determination)?

I don't know if UN resolutions override Spanish constitution. If it does (or there is a case to be heard that it does), take it to court and fight the Constitution. You can't just have one part of a country unilaterally deciding that part of the Constitution that does not fit their personal ideology can be just ignored as though it did not exist.

Why not? Isn't what self-determination essentially is: one part of a country unilaterally deciding that part(s) of a Constitution that does not fit their shared ideology can be ignored?

I'm not arguing for or against or justifying Franco's anything, UN's anything, Spanish anything, Catalonian anything, Barcelona's anything. I'm suggesting that the Constitution needs to be obeyed and if there are conflicts then take those to court and have the matter resolved and don't just have some people breaking the law/ignore bits of the Constitution that do not suit their personal aims at the time.

You are effectively arguing that the Franco system was democratic when you say that the current Spanish constitution was decided democratically - and that's ignoring Franco's exiling and executing Catalan nationalists in the 1930s-40s: "[1930s Catalan President] Companys is the only incumbent democratically elected president in European history to have been executed." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llu%C3%ADs_Companys - their numbers and influence will still have been depleted when the current Spanish constitution was drafted in the 1970s. Do you think it's still democratic if the electorate to which the result applies (apparently forevermore according to the Spanish constitution) still bears the scars of ethnic cleansing?

Trying to delay Catalan self-determination by tying it up in court cases would be immoral and illegal. It's a very negative approach.

[Psamathe]

Does it? Think carefully: do you want to argue that Franco's Fundamental Laws (under which the constitution drafters were elected) were a democractic decision-making system? Or that a referendum offering only a choice between the flawed constitution and continuing the Franco-era system gives democratic legitimacy to it?

Also, doesn't a UN Resolution (the right to self-determination) overrule what Spain claims to be law (no possibility of self-determination)?

I don't know if UN resolutions override Spanish constitution. If it does (or there is a case to be heard that it does), take it to court and fight the Constitution. You can't just have one part of a country unilaterally deciding that part of the Constitution that does not fit their personal ideology can be just ignored as though it did not exist.

Why not? Isn't what self-determination essentially is: one part of a country unilaterally deciding that part(s) of a Constitution that does not fit their shared ideology can be ignored?

I'm not arguing for or against or justifying Franco's anything, UN's anything, Spanish anything, Catalonian anything, Barcelona's anything. I'm suggesting that the Constitution needs to be obeyed and if there are conflicts then take those to court and have the matter resolved and don't just have some people breaking the law/ignore bits of the Constitution that do not suit their personal aims at the time.

You are effectively arguing that the Franco system was democratic when you say that the current Spanish constitution was decided democratically - and that's ignoring Franco's exiling and executing Catalan nationalists in the 1930s-40s: "[1930s Catalan President] Companys is the only incumbent democratically elected president in European history to have been executed." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llu%C3%ADs_Companys - their numbers and influence will still have been depleted when the current Spanish constitution was drafted in the 1970s. Do you think it's still democratic if the electorate to which the result applies (apparently forevermore according to the Spanish constitution) still bears the scars of ethnic cleansing?

Trying to delay Catalan self-determination by tying it up in court cases would be immoral and illegal. It's a very negative approach.

As I've seen it reported, Spain got together a Constitution and had a referendum about it an dit was accepted.
I thought the Spanish Constitution was passed by referendum in 1978 and Franco died in 1975.

I'm just arguing for rule of law and not having different groups deciding to ignore laws or bits of constitutions that do not suit their personal agendas.

Should Mclaren F1 drivers decide they can ignore speed limits because they are good drivers and their cars can handle the speed safely?


The idea of laws is that people obey them or argue/challenge them through due process to have them legally changed or rejected.

How can a country have a rule of law if different people/regions decide that they don't like some of those laws and so just break them - result is no law.

As I said earlier I'm not arguing about Frano, Spain, Catalonia, Barcelona or anything, just that if you have laws either obey them or have them changed. You keep throwing in about Franco, democracy, Catalan Nationals, ethnic clensing, etc. but bottom line is that Spain has a legal system and laws that apply to the entire country with no option for bits to be ignored for the personal ideologies for specific regions/cities.

I neither argue that Spanish law is morally right nor wrong. If Spain wants to keep or change it's laws then that's the business of Spain and the Spanish people. But it is the law.

Ian

[mjr]

As I've seen it reported, Spain got together a Constitution and had a referendum about it an dit was accepted.
I thought the Spanish Constitution was passed by referendum in 1978 and Franco died in 1975.

Yes, but his regime continued after his death until it could be replaced.

I'm just arguing for rule of law and not having different groups deciding to ignore laws or bits of constitutions that do not suit their personal agendas.

I'm just arguing for rule of law and not having different groups deciding to ignore basic human rights and UN resolutions that do not suit their personal agendas.

Should Mclaren F1 drivers decide they can ignore speed limits because they are good drivers and their cars can handle the speed safely?

That analogy is broken so many ways.

How can a country have a rule of law if different people/regions decide that they don't like some of those laws and so just break them - result is no law.

No, the result is two countries.

As I said earlier I'm not arguing about Frano, Spain, Catalonia, Barcelona or anything, just that if you have laws either obey them or have them changed. You keep throwing in about Franco, democracy, Catalan Nationals, ethnic clensing, etc. but bottom line is that Spain has a legal system and laws that apply to the entire country with no option for bits to be ignored for the personal ideologies for specific regions/cities.

I know you'd love to ignore the unseemly history of how this mess arose, but the bottom line is that Spain lays claim to a fixed area with no option for the self-determination of its peoples. That's not democracy: that's domination.

Did even any former overseas part of Spain gain independence without a war?